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Help!!! Timing issues!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help!!! Timing issues!!!
    Posted: June-26-2015 at 7:19pm
ok, I'm having some issue with my distributer. So here are the facts
1. I have a reverse rotating engine 351w Commander
2. when I adjusted the valves I did it three times to double check the firing order with TDC on each cylinder-firing order 18456273
3. when I primed the oil pump with a priming tool I went counter clockwise and is pressured up when I go backwards(clockwise, I lose pressure.
4. when I turn the engine over it is reverse rotation
5 My distributer is a presoltie marine distributer #E5JL-12100-CA

here is the issue, my distributer is turning clockwise when everything im reading says it is to turn counterclockwise......do I have the wrong cam, distributer or both? here are some pics of the distributer and cam
Shawn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 7:26pm
The crank is for sure reverse rotation by the stamped numbers and the wick groves. I just look online at cams and it seems I might have the wrong cam, gear is opposite....if anyone can confirm this that would be great

Thanks
Shawn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 7:41pm
or can I change the distributor gear?
Shawn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 7:46pm
or can I change the distributor gear?
Shawn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 7:52pm
If the dizzy gear and cam gear, mesh up properly, but the dizzy is going clockwise, you must have both the cam and the dizzy gear wrong.

Unless, you are cranking the engine the wrong way, in which case the only thing that is wrong is your starter.

How did you arrive at your current assemblage of parts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 8:49pm
the engine is cranking the correct way for a reverse rotation
I got this project from a guy who got it as a project....it was completely disassembled when I got it. The guy I got it from said the previous owner had the engine rebuilt and then left it outside. and water got inside the pistons and rusted the rings to the cylinder wall. he tore it apart and had the machine work done, then lost interest in it. other than that, I don't know much else but it looks like somebody got the engine out of a OMC IB/OB due to the parts that don't make the nautique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 10:23pm
That's a lefty dizzy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 10:30pm
Lefty being standard, normal rotation then?

Does that dizzy mesh properly with that camshaft? If it does, that's a left/standard camshaft as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 11:08pm
so after doing some research, both the cam and dizzy are standard rotation....what a waste of a new cam, any suggestions on where to order a cam from and what size? the engine is bored .60 over.
Shawn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2015 at 11:30pm
Cam Research. TRBenj and I think JoeinNy has a lot of experience with their cams. I think Tim has said their recommendations are on the conservative side though. If he does not see this pm him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2015 at 12:02am
Thank you, I will PM him if he doesn't reply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2015 at 12:45am
Forgot to mention check with him on the gear too. There are some on eBay but you need to know shaft size. Check that your distributor is a marine one also since this now seems to be somewhat of a collection of parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chuckactor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2015 at 2:29am
I have a distributor gear if you need it. Just pay shipping....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2015 at 3:03pm
When you are determining your rotation stand behind the flywheel on the transmission side. Rotate your engine from that view. If the flywheel turns to the right it is RH if it turns to the left it is LH rotation.
Engine Manufacturers always reference rotation from the Flywheel looking forward at the engine.
Your distributor gear and the one posted by Chuckactor appear the same to me.
If one is reverse rotation they both are.
If your gear currently turns your oil pump the rotation is correct.
I am not aware of a reverse rotation Oil Pump. I don't think the pump cares which direction it works.
If you adjust Hydraulic Lifters 3 times you are probably all messed up. Hydraulic lifters are very easy to set but you get one chance to do this correctly.
You will probably need to adjust them running once the engine starts.
Are you aware a Cam Break In will be necessary to avoid lobe failures.
On Start up of a new Cam and Lifters it is necessary to run the new engine on initial start up at 1,500 to 2,200 RPM for a minimum of 20 minutes.   You need to have your tune pretty close to good for this to happen.   Timing, Valve Adjustment and Carb tune have to be pretty close to on spec for this to happen.   It is very important or you risk camshaft failure. Use a high quality oil for break in. Some of the Diesel blends work well for this.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2015 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

When you are determining your rotation stand behind the flywheel on the transmission side. Rotate your engine from that view. If the flywheel turns to the right it is RH if it turns to the left it is LH rotation.
Engine Manufacturers always reference rotation from the Flywheel looking forward at the engine.

What about a flywheel forward engine?
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I don't think the pump cares which direction it works.

They do care. With any gear pump, rotation governs the suction and discharge.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2015 at 3:58pm
We manufactured Camshafts, Lifters, Oil Pumps in the 80's and 90's ( first TRW Brand then we bought Sealed Power brand and combined the companies, later we partnered with Melling for our oil pump supply) and although I was involved in selling many thousands of these I don't ever recall a request for a Reverse Rotation Oil Pump. Reverse rotation Marine camshafts we sold all the time.
We even had a special blueprinted Marine Oil Pump. It was built for higher flow but was sold for standard and reverse rotation applications.
Don't most Marine manufacturers keep the oil pump rotation standard even in reverse engines?
If your flywheel is on the front of your engine you need a newer boat!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2015 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

If your flywheel is on the front of your engine you need a newer boat!

Mark,
You've got this backwards. If your flywheel is on the aft end of the engine, you need an older boat!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 1:42am
The oil pump is always going the same way because it's driven by the distributor which is always going the same way on LH and RH engines. That's why the gears are cut different on the cam and dizzy on a RH application. So the dizzy and pump go counter clockwise no matter what.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 4:32am
Sounds like the Cam, Distributor and Oil pump are fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 7:09am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Sounds like the Cam, Distributor and Oil pump are fine.

From reading the thread again, yes for a standard rotation engine.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 9:07am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

When you are determining your rotation stand behind the flywheel on the transmission side. Rotate your engine from that view. If the flywheel turns to the right it is RH if it turns to the left it is LH rotation.
Engine Manufacturers always reference rotation from the Flywheel looking forward at the engine.
Your distributor gear and the one posted by Chuckactor appear the same to me.
If one is reverse rotation they both are.
If your gear currently turns your oil pump the rotation is correct.   

The original poster's gear is a lefty /////. Chuck actor posted a pic of a righty: \\\\\. Brian is correct that the dizzy always spins counterclockwise. If the rotor is spinning clockwise, then either the starter is the incorrect rotation, or the cam and distributor are the incorrect rotation. It's usually the former but the latter is certainly possible.

It is not helpful to define left hand and right hand as regardless of which way the engine is currently being spun by the starter, it doesn't tell you which way it *should* be spun. An engine builder who used a mismatch of a bunch of LH and RH parts can cause a real clusterF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 9:55am
I agree with Tim. If you did have the cam and that distributer installed you have a lefty cam. And as Tim said I would not rule out the wrong starter also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 3:14pm
If Chuckactor's distributor photo is a Left hand rotation distributor it should at least rule out the cam and distributor issue as both being left handed. The two distributor gears are the same rotation based on the pictures.
The starter, you are right on, it could be the opposite.   
Hard to say what you have when you start with parts in a box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 4:09pm




When you look at them the same way you can see they are different
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 9:34pm
Thanks Gary, it is obvious when you see them side by side. OOPs. My bad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2015 at 3:07am
Thanks for all the replies, chuckactor, PM sent. So just to clear questions up, This is a reverse rotation engine.
1)The original crank cast numbers and wick lines are reverse
2)the alternator has a reverse fan on it
3) the impeller was still on the bracket installed for reverse rotation
4)water pump is reverse rotation
5)the starter is reverse rotation
all these parts also had a matching multi layer paint job/overspray which leads me to believe that it all came from the same engine except the distributor was the only part that didn't have and paint or overspray on it.....now I believe one of the previous owners knew this and didn't pass it on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chuckactor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2015 at 12:55pm
The chunk of distributor is out of my 85. It is the original reverse rotation one.   When I put in the new Mallory, I had to buy a new gear with the same tooth angle. The Mallory gear has a different shaft diameter than the Prestolite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2015 at 10:27pm
Cue,   earlier you said you thought the engine was an OMC. ( I assume block )
A 351 OMC out of an I/O would be Left Hand Rotation.
So, you DO Not have a reverse rotation engine.

What I believe you actually have is a Left Hand OMC block.
And all the external parts from the Commander. Right Hand.

So, RR engine - NO    
       RR starter - YES

You need Chuck's gear and a RR Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chuckactor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-03-2015 at 6:50pm
Making any progress?

Chuck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cueball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2015 at 3:56pm
Hey Chuck, No progress right now, I have had two vacations recently and now I'm back to work doing a project that is going to take up alot of time from now til the end of October.... After that I will be all over the boat again.
Shawn
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