1999 Longhorn Nautique Restoration Thread |
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Faceplant
Senior Member Joined: July-27-2013 Location: Otter Lake , Mi Status: Offline Points: 399 |
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To paraphrase what the younger generation says - WTF . Feel bad for you !!
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Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3582 |
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Sorry this happened, puts a bad name out there for all machine shops when in reality it is a small number that do 95% of the bad things.
Look hard at your valve covers to make sure your roller rocker arms are not hitting the inside of the valve cover. I thought I saw blue aluminum chips inside your pictures. Your rocker arms are the only blue you should see in there. If you were charged for ARP head bolts this guy is cheating you. If you just noticed that he did not use ARP that is not bad, the OEM head bolts are reusable so that would not be an issue for me, unless I had paid for ARP. I think I saw 15 hours of Dyno time??? Why. Even with camshaft changes that should have been less than 1 - 2 hours on the dyno, break in time included. If it took them that long to figure out how to tune your EFI they were not qualified for the job, in my opinion. The engine bearings will be a very good source of what was circulating in your engine oil. If you can post pics of the engine bearings I could offer an opinion for you. They must be laid out exactly as they came out of the engine. Front to back uppers and lowers laid out in exact order of removal for Rods and Mains so you can see what the #1, #2, #3 etc saw when running. Bearing damage shows from the bearing closest to the oil pump and gets less as you go farther away. It is easy to see when tearing down the engine if you pay attention. While you are looking and taking pictures also lay out all 8 pistons, get pictures of the underside of the piston head as well as the top side of the piston head. If you remove the piston rings stack all 8 top rings, all 8 second rings and inspect the wear on the piston rings closely. If you can't read the wear just post pics, it is easy to see. Depending on what is found you may just need a cleaning new gaskets and assembly. Large chunks like i see in your photos should not make it through the Oil Screen and filter to do more damage, although when started cold your oil filter is in by pass mode and all oil circulates without filtering. If your oil was warm enough at start up it would filter normally. Hot oil flows well, cold oil not so well so a by-pass is built into engines so they do not starve for oil on cold start ups. The block oil plugs will need to be removed and all the oil galleries cleaned out. A good rifle brush works really well for cleaning the oil galleries. There does look like a lot of corners might have been cut but maybe your damage was not so bad. Hang in there. Beautiful boat by the way and I love the family ties story. Mark |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10606 |
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Think of the brighter side of things.
It looks like you're getting rid of the Holley manifold and throttle body, and going back to a modified original so you won't have to remodel the engine box to fit . And you'll be able to do things like access the thermostat and distributor a whole lot easier than with the Holley setup Just a little dim bit of brightness for ya' |
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zwoobah
Senior Member Joined: September-13-2018 Location: Providence RI Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Wow. What a hack job. So sorry to hear of this trouble.
If you happened to pay for the engine build with a credit card, file a payment dispute immediately. You won’t have to wait for the law suit to get your money. |
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1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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You are correct; very little value in the 40. PCM offers a really nice "kit" for retrofit to the 80.. It is an exact fit so no angle change or length problems. You do have to change out the drive plate; it is included in the kit. Specify the "top mount" shift cable, otherwise it might come with a "bottom shift" cable connection that I don't like because the ram (moving part of the cable) points upwards and will allow water to seep into the cable jacket. You also have to upgrade the oil cooler to a higher capacity one. It also comes with the kit. The inside of the 80 closely resembles the virtually indestructible Warner Gears of the past. Obviously you have the ability to do the changeout yourself. Discount Inboard Marine (www.skidim.com) has the kits. The guys there are super-knowledgeable.
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"Art"
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stepper459
Senior Member Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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This is the same guy, I assume? Really sorry to hear this. It'll come out okay in the end, but this sucks. |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Same guy unfortunately. Things looked very promising in the beginning. Shop was clean, tools were organized. He came at the recommendation from the owner of a very reputable machine shop out of Llano, Texas. |
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ultrarunner
Platinum Member Joined: October-02-2005 Location: Ridgefield, Ct. Status: Offline Points: 1805 |
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I'd be giving one of the good-ole' boys from Conway, NC a call. Airmail in one of the guys from Stewart-Hass or Roush. Them' boys' there can build some Ford motors;-)
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Yeah, Vince has been super helpful to me over the last couple years. Knowing that 80 series kit exists is why I am ok with utilizing the 40 series for now. If it doesn’t last, well the swap is easy! |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Thanks Keno. There is definitely a silver lining if I look close. Along with the intake, I’ve sent the original gt40p heads off for port work and new valves. I think I’m going back to those as well. Will put the Holley High Ram, low profile dual sync, and Windsor sr heads up for sale. It just feels better to me knowing original parts are reused. Intake, heads, and block. Makes it feel more original. It’s what I wanted from the beginning anyways. |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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The oil test came back today. I think the writing is on the wall but im not sure. A quote from Blackstone’s analysis.
“Universal averages show typical wear for a 351 cid Ford marine engine, and they're based on oil run about 30 hours. Most of the wear metals are in the average range, but copper and lead are on the high side. These metals typically show wear at the bearings, but aren't necessarily high enough to suggest a major problem at this point. Silicon is elevated, too, and it can come from either harmless sealer or abrasive dirt. The oil's viscosity reads like a 5W/30, and the 6.5 TBN indicates active additive left in the oil. Watch oil pressure and check back in 5-10 hrs.” |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10606 |
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It seems like whatever you do with the engine, you're gonna be into some tuning adventures all over again with all the changes from the original 351.
It also seems like the thought should at least cross your mind to see what your wallet weighs these days and consider a new complete drop in fuel injected crate engine from PCM or whoever. I'd at least call Jodi at Florida Inboards and have a conversation about what you would have for options since he does a fair amount of repowers in tournament boats. It'd be new, reliable, have good parts support and ................expensive. You could sell the 408 stuff to somebody here on CCF probably Ford would probably be spelled funny, more like Chevy unless it was an Indmar Raptor Like I said,earlier just something to at least consider |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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I seriously considered the zr409 and zr450. But originality was important to me so I decided to stick with the original 351. I still have the same feeling today. I think it would cool to tell my kids “the engine in this boat pulled me on my first jump set”. Now a lot of people would say that I’m not being logical. My girlfriend thinks I’m crazy for spending this much on a boat and my dad says that you can’t buy a boat like this today. He gets it lol. |
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burban65
Senior Member Joined: June-22-2008 Location: NW Indiana Status: Offline Points: 167 |
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An argument can be made that you are "crazy" for spending as much as you are on your boat but...........most of us on this website are in the some "crazy" club as you when it comes to boats in general. You should take your GF to a new Correct Craft dealer and let her look at some of the prices of the new boats........maybe even mess with her a bit and tell her you are ready to take the next step in your relationship ie: letting her go in 1/2 with you on a new G23.
On a serious note - I have enjoyed your thread, pics etc.... very much. Keep the updates coming! |
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SRB
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Faceplant
Senior Member Joined: July-27-2013 Location: Otter Lake , Mi Status: Offline Points: 399 |
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No clue on how much you have spent but since you are going to keep it for a long long time - then money WELL spent !! Interesting and enjoyable thread.
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Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6.
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67 ski nat
Platinum Member Joined: July-19-2018 Location: Santa rosa Status: Offline Points: 1178 |
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Your restoring a family heirloom that also haul ass round a lake
No worries. |
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2001SAN
Senior Member Joined: June-26-2012 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 241 |
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Terrible news.
I hope it works out for you. A lot of the real trauma I have had over the years has come from handing the boat over to 'professionals', but nothing on this scale. This 'builder' is a joke. Based on what you have done so far I'm sure you will turn this around in the Longhorns favour. Best of luck. D |
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
2001 Super Air Nautique 1989 Fairline Corniche 31 www.bannrivercruises.co.uk |
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Kristof
Grand Poobah Joined: October-08-2007 Location: Bree, Belgium Status: Offline Points: 3387 |
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My god... Just got back to this thread today and I am kinda gutted by your misfortune
My buddy Jo and I turned our boat maintaining hobby we have done for boatowners we know (and got out of hand) into a small business this year (I need something to do when I retire in a few years from the army LOL)... And like you, we had two new customers that came to us with rebuild engines (by different companies) where we thought to ourselves: "WTF did they do to this engine??". Things like on your engine: old bolts, wiring hack jobs, seals leaking and so on. It baffles me that these engine builders are so careless with the work they deliver... We do not pretend to be engine rebuilders, but for these customers we dismantled the engines and rebuild them with the same care we put into our own boats (and will do that for any customer in the future)... Therefore we are still looking for an engine rebuilder (or better put: a compny that can hone cylinders, flatten surfaces to spec,...) that we can trust and send the block to. Not easy. |
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- Gun control means: using BOTH hands!
- Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2822 |
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Horns:
What's the latest on your engine rebuild disaster? Hopefully you are able to work through it all... |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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So my attorney sent an official demand letter outlining all of the damage. The deadline for response is Friday 06/26. Still no response as of this evening. If no response, I am proceeding with suit. Not gonna let this guy take advantage of me. In the meantime, the engine is now completely broken down. The damage was much worse than just main bearings. Below are just a couple pics but the damage includes: -all 8 cylinders have scoring -piston rings are shot -main bearings shot -cam bearings shot -3 of the 8 wrist pins were seized upon removing the piston from the cylinder -Crank is scored and has to be re-ground -Once the heads were off, it was apparent the engine had been burning a substantial amount of oil in the short 10 hours it was run. Couple other interesting things found: -Instead of the cam being installed straight up, it was set retarded. -A high volume oil pump was used instead of high pressure pump. The way the pump was setup and with the small oil pain on this engine, the pump was essentially sucking the oil pan dry at higher rpm. -The cylinder wall honing was horizontal not crosshatched. Since the engine had to be taken down to the bare block, cleaned, and re-honed, I looked at this as a second chance to build something nicer. I am going to stick with the pistons, crank, cam, and heads I already have but this time, I am going to have the engine completely balanced. I want this thing to be absolutely perfect this time around. I just hope this suit isn't drug out. Either way, I don't think the boat will be ready until next summer. |
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67 ski nat
Platinum Member Joined: July-19-2018 Location: Santa rosa Status: Offline Points: 1178 |
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Really feel for you. Absolute bummer. Would ruin me
Sounds like you can handle setback and your on right track now Move forward, try to forget that fool |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Everything is going to work out! |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Of course the vertical scratches in the cylinders and the scratches on the bearing surfaces suggest that there was a lot of ""crud" in the engine when it was run.
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"Art"
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Not sure what’s worse. The damage or that hone job. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3582 |
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Quick observation based on your photos.
The cylinders were never honed or they failed to take out enough material with the hone they did. Those are boring bar marks in the cylinder in your photos. They should have been 100% removed by a proper hone. Shops leave about .002-.003 in the cylinder after boring to allow for a proper hone. A proper hone removes the boring bar marks and leaves a proper cylinder finish that your rings will seat well on. Maybe someone just forgot to hone or thought it was done, either way, very poor work on your engine. Take all 8 of your 2nd ring Piston rings. Stack them up and take a picture from the side. You want to show the side of the ring where it rubs on the cylinder wall. I will guarantee your rings from that engine even with very low run time are now sanded flat and will show a chrome like finish top to bottom on all 8 rings. The rough cylinder sanded those rings. The face of the second ring is made of cast iron, it is sloped, like a " \ " This \ shape touched the cylinder wall and is designed to help scrape oil off the cylinder wall or meter the oil so the top ring gets oiled but not too much. It helps the top ring and third ring do their job. In a low mile or hour engine when they are torn down with a proper cylinder hone the 2nd ring will show a silver line that only takes up maybe 10% of the \ shape where it is actually wearing/touching on the cylinder wall. At 100,000 miles on a good cylinder wall this \ shape touching the cylinder wall may be worn 40-50% where it touches the cylinder wall so 40% will show silver and the remaining part of the ring will still be black finish just like when it was new because it has not ever touched the cylinder wall. It has broken in and shows some wear but is operating normally. The second ring will document your damage and lack of a good cylinder finish. You can also document that the shop was the only one to actually run your engine so they are 100% responsible for the damages. They built it, they damaged it. Top rings will also show damage and they should be photographed with all 8 stacked but you will learn lots more from the 2nd ring, moly is tough and will hide a lot of damage or sometimes it just chips away and again you don't learn as much. I don't know what your lawyer is advising but having worked in the Engine Re Manufacturing industry for nearly 30 years I will share that courts only look at documented damage. So go ahead and have your engine built while keeping great documentation of what was found and what your costs are to fix it. Your engine bearings do not actually look that bad, the scratches you see are mostly in the Tin Plate on the bearings, tin plate is a final coating that is there to help break in the engine and protect the part while it is shelved before they go in an engine. The tin plate coating is only 20/1,000.000 of an inch thick so most of the scratches showing are not anything to worry about but they do look bad. The thrust bearing does show deeper scratches that are in the copper layer of the bearing, Those were larger particles that went through your oiling system and reached the bearings. Your Cylinder finish is the cause of your failure. I bet they plumb forgot to go back and hone, I bet one guy bored it and another built it without noticing it was never honed. To a naked eye looking at a bored or honed cylinder you have to look close to see the work was done. After the engine runs and the rings wear out trying to hone the cylinder the lack of hone is much more obvious. You have a solid case of machine shop failure, the shop owner should look at your photos and open his wallet to fix it because it will be cheaper and better for his shops reputation but he may just roll it to his insurance company to fight you. In California the law says you have to give the shop the opportunity to fix all the damage and if you don't the repair is back on you. I don't know what Texas law states but your lawyer should be able to advise. |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2822 |
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Dang. That “builder” is a butcher. Stevie Wonder would have done a better job using a box of old pinball parts.
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Thank you for the detailed reply. Lots of pictures have been taken during the disassembly by the new shop. These were what I snapped when I stopped by this weekend. It’s all a serious cluster.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3582 |
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Best of luck moving forward, I hope it does not tarnish the excitement and great work you are doing to restore this family treasure. The shop that messed up your engine does a lot to ruin the rebuilding industry. There are guys out there that work hard and deliver what they charge for. Your guy was a schmuck.
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Thank you. It really pissed me off in the beginning but I’ve accepted what happened. Luckily it can all be fixed. My excitement for the end result has not been affected at all. Looking forward to sharing progress! |
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flyweed
Gold Member Joined: July-11-2016 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 539 |
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Man, I can feel your pain my friend. All the work I put into my 1993 when I bought it, I will NOT trust anyone to working on my boat these days. THere "few and far between" that actually know what they are doing.
With that said. I am thinking of having either A: having my boats engine torn down and freshened up this fall (It's got 2600 hours on it now), or B. buying a reman. engine marine rigth hand rotation engine from MABBCOMOTORS and doing a swap out. I just need to find someone that I can trust to do it. And as you have found...it's not that easy. Keep us posted. |
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'93 Ski Nautique NWZ, Air Boom Tower
Drink Tonight..for tomorrow We Ride! |
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