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Trailer Brake odd issue

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MrMcD View Drop Down
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    Posted: September-15-2019 at 4:39am
I towed today with our BMW X5, I usually tow with our 2003 GMC Yukon.
The trailer brakes have been working like brand new this year after new master cylinder in June. Very happy with them.
I hooked to the X5 and the brakes freak out. On level ground or downhills the trailer brakes apply about 100% more than I want them to.
Behind the Yukon they brake perfectly.
A light application on a straight road or downhill makes the trailer brakes squeal the tires, release and squeal them again in rapid succession. Jerks the tow vehicle.
The BMW brakes are applied for a slow smooth stop at this same time.
This does not happen towing with the GMC at all, ever.
The difference between the two vehicles is the mount of the trailer hitch.
The Yukon offers a pretty straight and level connection from the boat trailer to the frame of the Yukon.
The BMW hitch is very low so I use a 7" riser on the receiver to get the ball up high enough for the boat trailer to mount.

I am wondering if this 7" rise is changing the geometry of the stop and putting odd pressure on the surge brake. This is a standard Atwood coupler.
I do think I could lower the 7" rise down to a 5" rise and still be OK on trailer height but I don't know if that will help the locking brakes.
I see tow vehicles all the time with Drop hitches and they seem to work fine.
My raised hitch, so far not so fine.
If I lock out the boat brakes the boat tows normal behind the BMW.
I will include a picture and I am curious if any of you have bumped into this issue.
And an extra pic of an old guy hanging on to the rope at almost 62 years of age.
Thanks
Mark
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8122pbrainard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-15-2019 at 8:44am
Mark,
After the bad braking with the BMW, did you try the GMC again to see what happens? I just can't imagine the trailer level making a big difference to cause the problems and wondering if it's a problem with the trailer and not the vehicle. How about vehicle to trailer wiring? Any difference?


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Mpost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-15-2019 at 11:20am
Mark,
How about a picture of the Atwood coupler. Is it like this? Is there any slop in the ball mount that would allow it to be pushed higher when the brakes are applied.

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MrMcD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-15-2019 at 4:27pm
My computer is acting up, I typed an answer and it crashed so I lost it. Crap.
Pete, the boat does tow perfect behind the Yukon. They both use the standard 4 wire plug in and the brakes are surge brakes not electric on the trailer.
Mpost, that is the identical surge brake on my trailer.
I measured and the trailer rides almost 4" taller behind the BMW, the rear of the trailer did drag in a couple spots it never drags behind the Yukon. I should take a better picture showing how tall the receiver stands above the BMW hitch.
The BMW does have a Chassis control system that has played with the body height going over bumps sometimes making bumps harsh, for $500 they can program it not to do that but I have not shelled out the $500 as it is not bad.
In very gentle stops the trailer brakes were locking the tire and squealing the trailer tires but they would apply and release over and over even in a gentle smooth stop.
I am still leaning towards the hitch connection. In the current 7" rise set up it is as if the trailer is going uphill slightly while the car is going downhill slightly. I will let you know what it does with a shorter receiver hitch. Might take a day or two before I can get it out again.
Thanks for the consultation, this one is funky to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-15-2019 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Mark,
After the bad braking with the BMW, did you try the GMC again to see what happens?



Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


Pete, the boat does tow perfect behind the Yukon.



Does this mean that you tried towing with the Yukon since yesterday or that it towed fine last time you used it.

I gotta agree with Pete, to try it again if you haven't, so you can rule out a trailer issue that may have just popped up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-16-2019 at 2:02am
I hooked up today using a 3.5" Drop rather than the 7" drop. In the BMW both are used inverted to raise the Hitch ball up because the BMW hitch is low to the ground.
I had to borrow the 3.5" which I usually use behind the Yukon, took it apart and flipped it over for BMW service..

Took it on the exact same drive where it gave me trouble yesterday.
The problem has evaporated completely. The trailer towed absolutely perfect just like it does behind the Yukon.
Using the 3.5" drop hitch inverted, the boat trailer tongue is now within 1/2" of the height it rides when behind the Yukon.   If you look close at the boat tongue in both pics you can see the Atwood surge brake is slightly above the BMW black bumper in yesterdays pics and it is lower than the top of the black bumper in todays pics. It measured 3.5" different today.
No matter what I did, uphill braking, downhill braking, soft braking or hard braking the boat brakes were perfect and worked as they should.
When I tried an aggressive stop I heard the trailer wheels start to chirp but they did not lock up like yesterday. Yesterday they were squealing and locking up on soft stops.

I never would have thought the 3.5" difference in mount height could make any difference.
This boat only has 185 hours on it since new so I don't think the trailer parts are worn out, maybe the shock is weak due to age.

The other thought I had concerns the tongue height. Lifting the tongue another 3.5" might be taking weight off the front boat axle allowing the brake to lock the tire easily.
When we go camping I have towed with the BMW before but at those times the boat is packed with another 800-1000 pounds of gear and ice chests and I always try to pack the front of the boat heavier to keep good tongue weight. That might have kept the trailer wheels better weighted and hidden this issue.
Thanks again for consultation services, this one had me scratching my head.
Pete and Keno, I had towed 3 days prior with the Yukon with zero issue but as soon as I pulled out of the garage with the BMW the issue was there yesterday.
Todays plan was to test with the 3.5" receiver and if the boat acted up again I was going to switch to the Yukon.   Did not need that test as the problem is resolved.
Pic from today, hard to see the difference but it is 3.5" lower at the tongue today. It was maybe 1/2 later so the light is fading in this pic.

Final note, the X5 seems to tow very nice, it has more power and acceleration than our 2003 Yukon. BMW 350 HP, Yukon 295 HP. BMW 6 forward gears with a really low 1st gear for launch, the Yukon is a 4 speed Auto with a much higher 1st gear.
I like the Yukon and trust it with the loads but the BMW is definitely quicker and gets better MPG with the boat behind it. And I checked, the 4.8L BMW also had about 20 pounds more torque.   But when they break the BMW is $$$$$$, the Yukon is only $$.

Mark     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-16-2019 at 9:23am
Makes perfect sense to me that if your brakes are on the front axle and it's unweighted quite a bit by having the front of the trailer 3 1/2 inches higher than level, then you'd get the front wheels locking up way to easily.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-16-2019 at 9:44am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Makes perfect sense to me that if your brakes are on the front axle and it's unweighted quite a bit by having the front of the trailer 3 1/2 inches higher than level, then you'd get the front wheels locking up way to easily.


Beat me to it. I’d bet it would not be an issue with a single axle trailer either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-16-2019 at 10:19am
McD:

Is your trailer made by DHL? It looks a lot like mine in your photo. My 2-axle DHL trailer came with a weld-on Atwood surge brake coupler for drum brakes. Before the actuator totally failed, it too was sensitive to hitch ball height with respect to the trailer. I experienced similar symptoms to what you are describing, but just not as severe. When I rebuilt the trailer, I cut the Atwood unit off and installed a bolt-on actuator for disk-brakes by Titan. So far, so good.

Good looking slant-back in Team Red colors. Very nice. Good photo of an old guy skiing. Kinda reminds me of the 60 year-old guy sitting at this keyboard...

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MrMcD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-16-2019 at 5:22pm
It does make sense, but looking at the pictures it does not look extreme at all so I am still a little shocked by the result.

The trailer is a DHM made in Sacramento.
I installed a Titan on my car trailer and it has worked fine for 15 years. I prefer the straight push application of the titan over the swivel push on the Atwood. Seems like a better design from the start. The Atwood is now obsolete so getting rebuild parts is harder and more expensive.

I like team red also, when I saw this boat for sale in Dec of 2014 with 99 hours on it I bought it quick and sold my Malibu. Zero regrets. It was good to be back in a Nautique, I started regretting selling my 78 Nautique not long after buying the Malibu in 1990. If you have owned both you know the reasons.
I still love to ski although it is a lot more work than it used to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mooree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-02-2022 at 8:23pm
I needed to add electric brakes to the second axle of my other 20’ trailer. I heard about this LIBRA trailer brake and I wanted to try it out. Almost immediately, I noticed the immense difference it made when stopping every time I roll out my 6,000-pound aluminum fishing boat.
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