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1993 Engine Intermittent Starter Does Not Disegage

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KRoundy View Drop Down
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    Posted: July-13-2019 at 2:59pm
Hi all,

I am so frustrated I could scream. After calming down I'm here to plead for help. 1993 PCM, ProTech Ignition replaced with DUI. Other than that stock (GT heads).

Last year I had a starting problem where I'd get a "click" and nothing else. That led to a lot of new parts. I started with the starter relay that I purchased from Nautique Parts. I then had an issue where the starter would not stop cranking. To shut down the engine I had to turn the key off, hit the ignition switch on the dash AND disconnect the battery. That led to a new ARCO starter, I also replaced all the battery cables with new ones. That appeared to fix the issue. I then got distracted with a dashboard problem with my Perfect Pass. That led to a installation of a relay to run the PP. It APPEARS to be working OK.

But now the starter not turning off is happening again. It does not happen all the time, so I'm really confused. It happened this morning twice. I did have a multimeter with me and I determined that when the starter was not disengaged that there was voltage to the wire that goes from the relay to the starter. This is the wire/post that tells the starter to fire. After checking that I did my key off-ignition switch off-unconnect battery cable thing to turn it off. I then started the engine, the starter did NOT stay engaged and I checked the voltage at that post and it was zero.

So - is that a bad relay? Perhaps the starter I replaced somehow burned out the new relay and now that I have a new starter the relay is acting funky? I know that a new relay is cheap but I don't want to just replace parts, I want to fix this problem so that it never happens again.

Please help me know what I should do. What can I check? What else could possibly be allowing voltage to fire on that relay? Oh, the key component (the part you turn in your dashboard) is also brand new.

I bring my humble attitude, a good multimeter and ask for wisdom from the masses.

One thought I just had - since this "starter does not disengage" issue began when I installed the new relay, perhaps it was a bad relay from the beginning? Does that happen? I'm 99% sure I have it wired up correctly. It is wired per the diagram that everyone posts here often.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyweed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 3:33pm
boy...that really sounds like a relay issue to me, but I'm no pro. Otherwise,, with the intermittent working/not working sounds like a short somewhere.   Sorry I can't be of more help, but I'd start at the Starter relay first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 3:40pm
The wire that goes from the relay to the starter is new too. A new one came with the starter so I figured, "Why not"? Looking at relays at SkiDim I just noticed it says, "If starter stays engaged it is a low amperage problem. Check both ends of the battery cables and main grounds." The big black cable from the battery to the engine is brand new. What else / where else should I be "checking main grounds"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 4:04pm
I think I agree with Flyweed. It sounds like the engine mounted solenoid (relay) contacts stick intermittently keeping 12 volts supplied to the starter solenoid.

I'd try a new relay, it's always good to have a spare anyways.

I think SkiDim should change their wording to "Low volts causing high amperage draw problem" if it says "low amperage" on their site

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 5:10pm
Looking back at your old post, did the ignition light on the dash stay on again this time???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 6:31pm
Mpost - I just realized I did not notice that today. Good question. I THINK I saw the light go off when I hit the ignition switch today, but I really cannot say for sure.

I went to a local marina today and got a new relay. Interestingly, this one "looks like" my older relay (I looked and could not find the old one so I must have tossed it). The original one, and the one I just purchased, is dark brown in color and looks like smooth plastic - that is, it has a glossy look to it. The one on my boat currently is lighter brown/tan in color and has a rough or textured look to it.

When I go out to my boat to replace the relay I am going to re-check all of my grounds to make sure that they are ALL clean and seated well. Time to do some wire brushing!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 6:37pm
Here is a screen capture from SkiDim:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 9:07pm
Since power = voltage times current and the starter's required power doesn't change, if the voltage to the solenoid/starter is low the amperage has to go up.

Just like a welder, higher amps are better at melting metal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2019 at 11:48pm
Agreed! I do have a solid 12-plus volts at the relay and at my starter. I do remember that. No voltage drop at all from the battery that I can see.

So, here is my current plan:
1. Put in my new relay.
2. Check every ground wire in the engine. Remove, wire brush connector, wire brush the post and seat, and re-install.
3. Check voltages, hit the key and see what happens.

Does that plan sound appropriate? Anything else I should try?

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-14-2019 at 6:54am
Originally posted by KRoundy KRoundy wrote:

Agreed! I do have a solid 12-plus volts at the relay and at my starter. I do remember that. No voltage drop at all from the battery that I can see.
Kevin

What about a voltage drop during cranking? Also, I'd suggest having your battery load tested.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-15-2019 at 5:29pm
Pete,

To make SURE I am doing the right thing: Where should I check for voltage drop on cranking? At the battery? At the starter? At the relay?

The battery, which admittedly is a Wally World one, is new as of last summer, but I can go have it tested if you think that is the culprit.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-15-2019 at 5:37pm
You may have a faulty ignition switch. Check the switch poles with a meter and see what you find. You could also remove the switch entirely and selectively jump the wires together to start the boat, then see if it will run without the starter staying engaged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyweed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-15-2019 at 7:25pm
KRoundy..you can check voltage drop at both the battery and starter on start up. you should read well over 12.6v before hitting the ignition. when cranking you should see no less than 9.6volts at your battery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-16-2019 at 8:22am
It seems to me that you put in a new ignition switch last September, replacing one that testes good.

You also checked a bunch of voltages and cleaned every connection under the sun last September.

Refer back to those readings which were good

One thing that seems to be getting overlooked by everyone is that the load on that engine mounted solenoid is pretty small compared to what it's designed to handle.

Originally it handled full starting current going to the old style Ford starters

In this application it handles a pretty small current to supply the starter mounted solenoid and none of the current that actually spins the starter motor

Highly under worked so I doubt there's any welding of contacts in there, but it could be bad and probably is since when the starter stays engaged you have 12 ish volts at the starter mounted solenoid and when things are right (starter disengages) you don't have voltage.

I don't think it would be the new ignition switch since you turn it off and hit the ignition breaker which takes power away from the switch and the starter still stays engaged.

When you disconnect the battery as expected, you take power away completely and it shuts off.

And............nothing wrong with a Wally World battery

I can barely spel Perfekt Pass and know nothing about how you wired it's relay, but with the problem popping up after that was done, it might be worth taking away the power input or just pulling the relay and seeing how things act    I'd call this a real shot in the dark, but it's easy to do.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-16-2019 at 10:12am
I would like you to report the voltage found on the small terminal on relay while cranking with the HT coil wire removed.

I would like you to use battery for ground not block ground.

I know it sounds crazy but i would like you to then try starting the boat with the choke disconnected, and again report the voltage on the small terminal on the relay while cranking, HT coil wire removed.

Also refresh us what type battery you are using, what does it say on it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-16-2019 at 1:38pm
OK. I will go out to the boat and get all this data for everyone. The first thing I'm going to do is replace the current relay with my new one.

KENO - assuming that I have wired the PP relay correctly, and the fact that it is running directly from the battery, I would also highly doubt that is the issue but it is worth a try.

GottaSki - when you say, "I would like you to use battery for ground not block ground", do you mean with my tester? The spot I am using for my tester currently is just some random spot on the bock, but I could move the ground over to the battery. That would essentially be "testing" my new black ground battery cable.

The battery is a Walmart "Value Power Group 65" battery. 650 CCA. That is fewer CCAs than the first battery I purchased for this boat, but still way over the owners manual requirement of 350. It is NOT a "marine battery".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-16-2019 at 2:31pm
Its not critical, but please note where you call ground when reporting hte numbers
If you can do both places that would be best.

Using the block ground had merit also, please do that. it will better tell us the voltage the relay coil is actually seeing to actuate.

Measuring voltage from battery post (not clamp) to the block while cranking will tell us resistance of the GND cabling and connections better than ohming them out would, and that should be quite low.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-16-2019 at 3:22pm
Just noticing a question about the key/switch. I did test it before I installed it. Of course, this is not under load or anything but I got infinite resistance at the switch when the key was in the "on" position and then well less than 1 ohm resistance when at the start position. I could easily remove it if we feel like it needs a new test. The one I replaced had very similar performance.

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2019 at 3:09pm
One minor update - the boat is at the lake and I've been unable to set aside any time to go just tinker with it. But on Saturday I dropped it in the water, started it and it ran just fine. Started it a few times and the starter disengaged every time. I had my replacement relay with me but did not install it as I didn't have time. Hope to get a free evening this week where I can really dig into it and take all these measurements.

The engine starts / fires very fast. It will be quite interesting to see if I can get a reading for the voltage under load when starting the engine. I'll have about 1/2 a second to get that reading.

Interestingly, the engine is now idling quite high once it is warmed up. Right around 1000 RPM or so (indicated on the Perfect Pass display). I'll need to drop that down a touch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2019 at 2:24pm
Update - conclusion (?):

I spent an evening and a morning working on the boat. I replaced the suspect starter relay with the new one I got at Harbor Marine (Everett, WA). As I might have mentioned before, this relay looks (appearance-wise) like the original. That took about 30 or 40 minutes. The remaining hours I spent making certain that every, every ground was seated solidly. I didn't like a couple of the connections so I put new connectors on two grounds I considered "loose". I then ran a new ground wire up under the dash, connected it to a grounding block and then ran three grounding wires from the block up to my dash. I found the heaviest-looking grounding wires on the right, center and left side of my dashboard and added my new grounds to those connectors (I cut off the old female blade connector and installed a new one). I figured that this would spread new ground connections across my dashboard.

I got to the lake and the boat fired right up. No "continuous cranking" issue with the starter. After running it for a bit I the idle was high so I put it back where it should have been. The Perfect Pass operated perfectly (no pun intended, but... ha ha ha). I think that maybe I finally have my issue(s) licked! Thanks again to all my friends at CCF!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2019 at 3:35pm


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