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Shaft General Propeller versus ARE

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    Posted: June-07-2019 at 11:07am
Does anyone have actual experience whether the quality/strength of shaft is superior from one company to another?

We have bought ARE shafts and have not had any problems with them. The taper is short on the older shafts, but I'm told they've changed their design and now have a longer taper.

General Propeller has different strength shafts, but their ski boat shaft is spec'd with their highest quality, so I don't know that they are any stronger than an ARE.

I ordered a shaft with General 3 weeks ago and they misplaced the order. They are now telling me their supplier has to custom make a 1"-5" coupler which takes 8 weeks.

The CCF perspective seems to be General is better than ARE, but is that really true or a myth?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 11:21am
Ask Joe.

Doesn’t matter on a stock boat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 11:44am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Ask Joe.

Doesn’t matter on a stock boat


Sounds good to me

I've used both and not had a problem with either. ARE was on a 454 with the 5 inch coupling for a 10-18/72C

Eight weeks wait vs probably about 5 days from Oregon, I know what I'd do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 12:51pm
Kens tendencies would be problematic considering the [considerably non-stock] application.

I’d be more inclined to go with an interference fit for cheap- have the length tuned locally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 1:00pm
Agreed, it doesn't matter on a stock boat and not even so much on most anything without a gear reduction transmission.   

The shaft material strength comparisons can be a little confusing because at certain Diameters larger than we deal with the strength of an AQ 17 might be greater than or equal to an AQ 22 - but that is not the case at 1 inch.   There is also AQ 22HS (high strengh) but again only in larger diameters.   

My experience with elberts ARE is that they are using a "17 series" material for their "stock" 1 inch system that was (maybe is) around 400 bucks. I had them make me a "22 series" shaft once and that cost me $630 - it is leaning against a wall broken along with a couple of the "17 series" ones and I certainly can't tell any difference between them at this point other than the size of the hole left in my wallet.    Their advice was to use a flexible coupling and not waste the money on a 22 series shaft... mighta been pretty good advice. Whether it would have helped with any dynamic misalignment issues or simply allowed me to avoid the short taper, big key caused breaks they all suffered with...   Might be a way to get shaft in under 8 weeks if such things are on the shell somewhere...

The next shaft I bought was from General and at the time they quoted an AQ22 shaft with a single taper for 366 or a double taper for 419. (4 inch coupling) Which seemed to be a pretty good deal considering the 620 for the last A.R.E I bought.   I am still running the GP shaft, so far with no issues but I haven't pulled on anything hard enough to bend the pylon lately either.

I would be interested in a seeing a latest and greatest ARE shaft at some point and see how it changed, so be sure to post a picture or two before you put it in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 1:02pm
It would probably be helpful if Bruce explained the application vs Tim using inside knowledge over Ken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 1:41pm
They've offered a single taper and a split taper, but if we're buying new, would rather get a double taper. Is there any strength differences between the different types of fit?

I'm waiting to hear from ARE on their availability and the dimensions of their supposed new taper. We're hoping to do all this once, so we'd like to do it the best way.

I spoke with Vince at SkiDim last year and he mentioned that ARE recommended a flexible coupler for their shafts, and as I understood him, not due to a problem with the ARE, but people's difficulty in providing a good alignment. I'll see what ARE says about their couplings and just how much they've changed their tapers, which I will post.

Joe, do I understand you correctly that the GP shaft is a higher strength than the ARE?

Ken, engine is modified with more hp than stock and boat may at times be lugging 5 or 6 heavy weights pulling a barefooter.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 2:57pm
I replaced my bent OEM shaft with an ARE, the double taper does make install or removal much easier. I have the 1.23:1 tranny. It fit perfectly in our 95 Ski Nautique. No regrets.
I have not pulled anything heavy enough to bend the pylon so maybe you stress yours more. Could you upgrade to the 1 1/8" shaft like the larger boats use.
More money, prop, strut, Log, couplers and shaft but you would be adding a lot of strength.
I would guess 20% stronger at least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:



Joe, do I understand you correctly that the GP shaft is a higher strength than the ARE?



I do not know what GP is using for a "standard" 1" shaft or what it costs, I asked specifically for them to quote an AQ 22 shaft for me cause that was the best available and I have an issue with shafts.

Based on my now 4-5 year old experience with elberts is the ARE shaft you get if you do not specify material for $400 was "17 Series", material it cost me $620 for them to make me one out of "22 Series" material. To the best of my recollection off the top of my head in the 1" size AQ 22 is approx 20%-25% stronger than AQ 17.   

Aquamet 17 material properties

Aquamet 22 material properties
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


I have not pulled anything heavy enough to bend the pylon so maybe you stress yours more. Could you upgrade to the 1 1/4 shaft like the larger boats use.
More money, prop, strut, Log, couplers and shaft but you would be adding a lot of strength.
I would guess 35% stronger at least.


I have in fact spend more than enough on broken 1" shafts to justify going to a 1.125" shaft which would be 40-50% stronger - and props that I run started off life as designed for a 1.125 shaft so they are not a limiting factor. But unless it breaks at the end of the season it always seems easier to just grab a quick replacement and go boating.   Nothing like a stock gt40 with 1.23:1 should be a problem with a 1" shaft. Somewhere around 500 ftlb of torque at that gear reduction seems to be getting greedy.    Which for Bruces purposes should mean if he is expecting over 600 ft-lb of torque with a 1:1 it would be worth some extra thought.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 3:44pm
Joe, thanks for the assist, I had printed 1 1/4 and realized later it is 1 1/8" shafts that were used on the larger heavier boats, I think Mastercraft used them in the Ski boats also?
( I will go back and correct that )

600 ft lb of torque? are you running a diesel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

We have bought ARE shafts and have not had any problems with them. The taper is short on the older shafts, but I'm told they've changed their design and now have a longer taper.

I too haven't had any problems with the ARE. They were the "early" ones and I also was concerned with the short taper. It seemed pretty steep so the concern was the ability from the shaft and coupling to develop a good seat. The General I used have a longer taper with no concerns. It would be interesting to see what the new ARE design is.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

It would probably be helpful if Bruce explained the application vs Tim using inside knowledge over Ken.


Yeah, no fair

I thought this was a mildly modified 454 powered Atom Skier he was working on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 6:33pm
Operation “Deep Rudder” top secret clearance required.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 8:26pm
I saw an add once for a Ski Nautique for sale in England powered by a GM Duramax Diesel so it has been done. That would be a beast of an engine in a boat. But Heavy.
350 HP and 850 ft lbs would move a Nautique even with 10 barefooters in tow.

It takes a pretty strong engine on gas to hit 600 ft-lbs.
Are we talking supercharger or turbo?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


350 HP and 850 ft lbs would move a Nautique even with 10 barefooters in tow.

Mark,
I agree but, the problem is getting all that power into the water. Joe can attest to that!
Also the reason the multiple engine O/B's (with multiple props) are so successful with the show ski teams.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2019 at 11:53pm
I received info from ARE. The 17-4 is the standard metal. The AQ22 is what he sells to drag boat racers. Price for the AQ77 is similar as you noted, Joe. They have 5" flanges in stock. He said he re designed the taper a few years ago, but didn't give me specifics other than to say it is to borg warner specs with a height of 2.13".

GP lists AQ22. If that's what they quoted for a ski boat shaft their prices are really good. Their wait on the flange is not so good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2019 at 10:27am
Don’t blame me for Bruce not providing enough info to properly answer the question he’s asking .

I’d want to see a drawing of the redesigned coupler/taper.

The torque output is one piece, the prop is the other... I wouldn’t expect to see quite the same 13.5x16 that joe runs bolted up to this 1:1 project, so hopefully some head room there. A 1-1/8 swap on a 2001/NWZ should be straightforward since the SS used the same strut in a larger size- but no ones figured out how to do it on a Bfn yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2019 at 10:48am
My question was about how the two brands compare. I'll call ARE and discuss the coupler on Monday. It would stand to reason that if they re designed their coupler they put an improved taper on it. They may have more experience in special applications as they are a small shop and not a large producer for the marine industry like GP is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2019 at 12:36am
There are tradeoffs in tapers as in life, the origInal ARE design was short so you could get a removal tool and socket in there so it could be separated without pulling the engine.   It was tight enough in my boat it took a cut down socket. The one I have on now from gp is likely not coming off with the engine in place. That is minor for me but certainly not for all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-11-2019 at 10:26am
This is what I've learned:
Both companies use the 17 material for their shafts. ARE recommends the 22 for an extreme use as it is a stronger material. GP insists that it is not a stronger material and is only needed for salt water use.

ARE has 5" flanges for 1" shafts available. GP has to have them custom made. I'm waiting on a price for that.

ARE's taper is now at about half the angle that it used to be and uses a flat key rather than a woodruff key.

The ARE flange is approximately 2.5" long. The GP is 2.625" long,

When you call ARE, you speak with the owner, GP a salesman.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shierh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2019 at 5:52pm
Got mine from General.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2019 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

There are tradeoffs in tapers as in life, the origInal ARE design was short so you could get a removal tool and socket in there so it could be separated without pulling the engine.   It was tight enough in my boat it took a cut down socket. The one I have on now from gp is likely not coming off with the engine in place. That is minor for me but certainly not for all.

Joe,
I just noticed your comment regarding pulling the engine. You cane still use the spacer and long bolt trick to pop the shaft off the taper.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2019 at 6:29pm
Well that gets the old shaft off... how do you get the new one in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2019 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Well that gets the old shaft off... how do you get the new one in?

The cut down socket worked for the GP longer coupling without a problem so, considering the redesigned ARE is the same length, it should work too. Next time we meet or you see Joe, we'll show you how to shorten a socket.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2019 at 8:58am
New taper: Less steep and with a much shallower 1/8" keyway.



Old taper, much deeper keyway for woodruff key

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2019 at 4:43pm
For historical records the coupling that General Propeller uses has a 1.775 inch long taper (42% improvement over the 1.25 new ARE) that is no smaller than.885 at the bottom of the key slot at the small end of the tapered portion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2019 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

New taper: Less steep and with a much shallower 1/8" keyway.



Old taper, much deeper keyway for woodruff key



WOW, thanks for posting that pic. Takes me back to my apprenticeship days (long ago) when we actually had to read verniers.   But I don't think I ever saw a set that were in fractions instead of decimal. Must have been made for woodworkers?? Neat piece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 9:23am
Duane, that is an inexpensive measuring devise that I bought from McMaster Carr. I also bought a bolt hole measuring devise to help keep us out of trouble. I've never used a set before, so I wouldn't know what the norm is.

We ended up buying an ARE shaft as they had the correct size on the shelf as well as they have 5" couplings in 1" diameter. He offered us a great deal on the shaft as it was a custom length. Cecil was confident that with the 1:1 trans the application would be fine. If not, we're not out a lot of money.

GP only has 5" couplings in 1" shaft sizes in a single taper. To get a tapered shaft, they have to order a custom flange for upwards of $500.

If our shaft fails, we will have to go the single taper GP route.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 12:27pm
Duane, glasses check! I don’t think that’s Vernier... I'm hesitant to even call it a caliper over a "ruler with jaws" but McMaster calls that a "Economy Slide Ruler Caliper". They list 3 different models.

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