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New to me 72 Skier

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KENO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2019 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

Putting in a little time on the skier...we have fully sanded the orange gel and are hunting down a paint booth to rent. Plan is still to shoot new gelcoat. We have done some tests and they are pretty good. Fingers crossed.

We also put the engine back together. New to us Commander manifolds, therm housing and water pump. Rebuilt the carb and tested it out on the Tique. Tried to start yesterday on the stand and a few issues. Couldn't get the fuel pump to prime. We tried two pumps. Is there a secret? Running out of a 5gal gas can. If they are shot, easy rebuild? Greg suggested an inline ball primer to get it started.

Also, while cranking we noticed oil leaking out of the bell housing. Strange. Thoughts on these drips? We missing plugs in these holes? Rear main seal shot? Pics below.

Thanks.





If you start the engine with a squirt of gas down the carburetor , it should fire and the pump will prime itself pretty easily. It may take 2 or 3 attempts for it to prime and keep pumping. Are you using clear tubing on the tank to fuel pump connection so you can see if it's sucking some gas?

Or do your primer bulb suggestion to make sure the suction line is full before starting.

If the pump(s) are bad, ease of rebuilding depends on what kind of pump it is and how old.

An old original to the engine Carter..............pretty straightforward.

A new Carter.............not so much

An AC dual diaphragm pump, you can't buy a kit but Then and Now Automotive will rebuild it for you.

A picture of the pumps would be good.

There shouldn't be any oil slinging around the bellhousing. It can drip out the very bottom because it's not meant to be able to hold any leakage from the engine or transmission.

Is it engine oil? Does the transmission have ATF in it or maybe 20W engine oil

You have the rear main seal and a couple of oil gallery plugs and the big plug at the back of the camshaft that could leak engine oil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2019 at 4:14pm
All old pumps. We have quite a few. Will take pics next time. Def a few old carters. We have an in-line filter on a short fuel line and could see that gas wasn’t coming. Line is only 2 ft total. I sucked through it and got gas to the filter. Sounds like a rebuild may be necessary. The one on the boat has a glass bowl on the bottom with what seems to be a filter in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2019 at 3:59pm
While we have more I took the info I could find off of some of the pumps. Think they are all carter. One is a Carter 988. One is a Carter 6. The last just says 41414.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-11-2019 at 8:38pm
And the pics:

First is our thought for matching the orange of the skier. Think we got a pretty good match on a premix.



Next are pics of the pumps. Take a look and let us know thoughts on rebuilding. I have done a little searching for rebuild kits. Just not sure of their condition and or the right rebuild kit(s). Will start with one, hopefully someone knows the right kit for one of these pumps. Can the pumps be soaked in carb cleaner?















78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-11-2019 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

Will start with one, hopefully someone knows the right kit for one of these pumps.

Then and Now Automotive.


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77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 9:17am
Check with Reid and Brad on the orange vinyl, ones been identified to match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 10:56am
That color chart is for gelcoat. Want to see if we can accomplish gel before spending $ and time on the other biggies like stringers and upholstery. Hoping to order gel soon.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 11:40am
You might be better off having a good gel guy tint some for you. The chances of finding something off the shelf that won’t be a noticeably different shade is slim to none. But if it’s cheap then there’s little harm in trying it. Gel repair is pretty easy and can always be redone if you don’t like the match... you’re only out the time and effort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 12:11pm
We are shooting the whole thing so a close match is great.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 12:27pm
Wow. How much of the old gel are you taking down to avoid having too much thickness?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 1:29pm

Oh my. Consider a pepper-flake of crap will clog the idle fuel orifices and require the carb to come apart and wreck your outing,    I'd throw the pumps and anything that caught their cooties away.
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

River Rat to Mole
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 3:16pm
Looking at your fuel pump pictures, the pump in the picture with a left hand holding a rusty metal fuel line is an AC dual diaphragm pump.

Then and Now can rebuild it, they won't sell the parts to do it yourself. Mille1sj had them do one recently and seems plenty happy with it.

The others are Carter single diaphragm and look like oldies that can be rebuilt.

Click on the link below for more info and there are some pictures of the newer Carter that maybe somebody can get apart and back together again, and also the older Carter that you can get a kit for and do yourself or have Then and Now do it for you. A few other places sell the kit for the Carter also.

link.

A good trip through a bead blaster after it's all disassembled will tell you if the Carter's are gonna survive since the kit has everything you need except the housings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 5:49pm
Why not buy a new Carter Marine or PCM? Originality?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 7:47pm
Leaning towards new but wanted to explore rebuild to save money, learn something and use the original part.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 7:50pm
The new carters (which is what PCM sells at a markup) have not been great as of late. Also not rebuildable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2019 at 11:11pm
Anyone try the Airtex? Saw it in another thread. On sale now for $40 prime on amazon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2019 at 12:05am
Smart money would say get a Carter from Skidim. They have a reputation to consider- if too many junk ones are coming back they will find a different supplier. Call and ask Vince if they are still problematic. They are all made overseas now that's why I rebuilt my original
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2019 at 10:17am
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

Anyone try the Airtex? Saw it in another thread. On sale now for $40 prime on amazon.


It's the same construction as a new Carter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarrell001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 12:40am
“Wow. How much of the old gel are you taking down to avoid having too much thickness?”

Good question. We sanded aggressively with 180 grit. We are going though the gel in a few places, but by no means have we sanded all of the gel off. The whole boat seams to have been sprayed fairly thin at the factory.

I assume you are concerned about spider cracking?   I’m listening is you have any opinions on the matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 9:27am
No opinions other than strongly suspecting that overall thickness may lead to cracking due to the lack of strength in the gel. Some say most/all the old needs to come off? Just make sure you do your homework.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 10:17am
Originally posted by jarrell001 jarrell001 wrote:

“Wow. How much of the old gel are you taking down to avoid having too much thickness?”

Good question. We sanded aggressively with 180 grit. We are going though the gel in a few places, but by no means have we sanded all of the gel off. The whole boat seams to have been sprayed fairly thin at the factory.

I assume you are concerned about spider cracking?   I’m listening is you have any opinions on the matter.

       
Mine was so bad (as you can see) that I took it all the way down. Then filled the worst spots and then flooded it with a Polyester primer. Sanded again and then sprayed gel coats to proper thickness. Some have rolled the gel on. You are going to have to sand the new gel down to a smoothness that you can start buffing anyway. Horrible labor intensive job. We are applying everything backwards as the gel goes onto the mold first at the factory then the layup process begins. Good luck
Keep it as original as YOU want it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 10:32am
For clarity: I am by no means a gel coat expert here. Kind of a "jump in the lake and learn to swim later" type guy. Gel coat repair people earn every cent of the fee.
You also need a gun with large enough nozzle to spray this stuff. Orange peel is inevitable. And don't try to thin the gel down much or it will loose its integrity.   
Keep it as original as YOU want it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 12:21pm
Duratec hi gloss additive is your friend here, check it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarrell001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 12:44pm
Duane in Indy - we have not sanded anything close to the amount you removed. I'd be curious to know what tools and what grit level you used to sand that deeply? We will be spraying with a G100 gel coat gun. I sprayed some test panels from a junk boat, and they turned out very nice. The real challenge will be even coverage and working in small batches of gel.

Gary S - I've read briefly about the dura tech hi gloss additive, but have not tried it. It looks like it thins things out significantly.

Our next step is to find someone who will let us use their paint booth. We may have found one in Denton, NC and may know tomorrow if it will work out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2019 at 2:17pm
Seriously reconsider using that dump gun - you guys are not spraying in a mold you are more or less painting with thicker paint. Booth is not necessary if it becomes to big a deal to find one of those temp garages/carport would work- your going to be buffing and sanding anyway
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2019 at 11:41pm
Grabbed the Airtex pump as it was on sale for ~$40. Will give it a shot. Put it on the engine and she fired up. Didnt get to run for long bc no water but it sounded decent for the short run on the stand. Still leaking oil out of those two back holes. Looking like we will have to get a new rear main seal...sound right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-15-2019 at 2:34pm
Compression testing type of day

1-110psi
2-85
3-110
4-105
5-110
6-55
7-105
8-115

Still a runner or have to rebuild? Any troubleshooting tips to determine issue? Rings or is this just a bore and rebuild? First time down the engine path.
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Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-15-2019 at 10:10pm
Next step is to re-perform wet and see if 2 and 6 come up appreciably.

The idea is to try and discern between valve sealing issues and blow by on the rings.

Valve issues can be solved with a head recondition vs bottom end rebuild.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-16-2019 at 12:55am
Wet? In the water will make a difference. How? Or will the load make the difference. I like the potential of less rebuild.
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Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-16-2019 at 3:00am
Wet Compression test would involve adding a teaspoon of oil in the spark plug hole and doing a re test. The oil will seal up bad rings and give higher compression with a wet test. If your issue is bad valves the oil does not help and compression will remain mostly the same.
An engine that has sat for long periods will have some rust on the cylinder wall and even on the valve stems. If your wet test takes your cylinder with 55 PSI and it jumps to 100 PSI you know the rings are leaking badly.
I would hold off on a compression test till you run it for a while and let the rings clean up the cylinder walls and the valves pound on the seats and hopefully seat for you, sometimes the compression will jump back up if you are really lucky. As is you have two weak cylinders that need to get better or be repaired. A leak down test could help determine if the rings and valves are good. It will even show if you have an exhaust valve or intake valve issue but for now the wet test will help see what you have.
Was this a good engine when it was parked?
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