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Fuel pumps not kicking on

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Mike81 View Drop Down
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    Posted: June-18-2018 at 1:16am
So the quick backstory is i bought a 97 nautique with gt40 5.8, meter shows 1500 hours. Owner said it started running rough, pulled half the motor apart and decided not to fix then covered it and let it sit. I got a great deal and rebuilt the motor. Both fuel pumps and fuel filter were original so I guarantee that's why it was running rough.

After rebuild I'm trying to get it running. I replaced both pumps. When I jumper them direct both run. When I jumper the end terminal on the EEC TEST plug they run. But when I turn the key on they don't kick on. I replaced the relay.

Does this mean the problem is in the ECU? Any ideas??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 9:12am
Can't help but notice that your info here and your info on PN don't seem to agree with each other.

Also can't help but think that you have electrical issues with cable connections or mechanical binding issues with the engine or your timing is off by a bunch if your brand new starter doesn't turn it over very good. (from the PN thread)

And don't believe for a second that your boat engine turns over slower than a car engine like somebody over there told you.

Over there you say the pumps run, so do you still have the same pump issue you mentioned in the first post?
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Mike81 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 4:11pm
Not sure what info is not consistent. I'll make sure to change whatever is. I have a 97 SN gt40 5.8 direct drive. I've posted here a few times without help so I decided to try PN last night.

I solved the pump issue yesterday, I was able to find wiring diagrams and troubleshoot all electrical systems and fix several issues. At this point everything seems to be working it's just not firing. Ill be working on it all evening again.

My local shop is backlogged of course so I'm on my own for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 4:58pm
Is it not getting spark or fuel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 5:15pm
You must have got lost in the shuffle

You never did mention the tough turning over on this site, only the fuel pump issue.

What fixed that problem?

It sounds like you have spark but the spark isn't making the engine want to do anything from the PN post.

What are the issues you have now?

Is it turning over normally or real slow?

How do you know your timing is right or even close?

If you have diagrams, you probably have the 301 page troubleshooting manual, if you don't have it, it's in the reference section

Maybe just update here with what you know now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 6:52pm
Well the 1st thing I do when an engine doesn't want to start is manually feed it some gas, just because it is the easiest test.

I would just squirt a 1/2 ounce into air intake, put flame arrestor back on & see what happens.

But some will argue checking for spark is even easier   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 8:14pm
Ok here's the latest...its turning over but not firing. I was playing with timing and got it to start backfire popping through spark arrestor but then lost that.

As for the fuel pumps I honestly think it was loose ecm connection. I found the 300pg manual and the wiring diagrams so I chased every wire and found the fuel pump relay wasn't getting ground from the ecm. I removed the ecm to possibly test it and found I only had it finger tight. After verifying all other connections I plugged the ecm back in and tightened it and the pumps started working right.

As of now I've replaced both fuel pumps, fcc filter, fuel pressure regulator, injector o-rings, wires, plugs, starter solenoid, starter. I've tested fuel and ecm relays, injectors, injector wiring.

I'm getting 40psi at fuel rail and after cranking I removed injectors and they were wet on bottom and appear to be spraying fuel. ECM is sending power to injectors during start. Verified spark by grounding a plug.

So my only rational thought is timing. I originally found tdc on #1 before I put the valve covers on but recently by repeatedly turning over with my finger on the hole and verifying where max pressure is. I confirmed with a screwdriver touching top of piston. I've set distributor pointing to #1 plug at 0 deg and at 5 deg BTDC as mentioned in another post. I've tweaked the distributor several degrees each direction and only got the popping mentioned above briefly. I'm not an expert but set timing on a 350 about 15 years ago without a problem. I called a mechanic buddy who might be able to help me with timing tomorrow night.

I was just wondering if there's anything unique to these motors I'm missing. I ordered a new distributor cap and rotor but got sent the wrong one and this one looks good so I never got another. I also did not replace the coil or ignition module.

In the post on PN someone mentioned another power wire and tonight I found a random red wire in a single loom about 10 ga that's cut off. I have no idea what it is because it's not connected to battery and doesn't come out behind kick panel with other wiring. All the wires were cut or disconnected when I got the boat so that's been a chore. I have the heavy main power wire going to starter solenoid and there's a res power about 10-12 ga in the main engine harness. Any ideas on whether this other one is legit or something old?? Site won't let me upload pics from phone. I tried posting on the nautique Facebook page because there are a lot of folks near me but nobody will let me come look at their boat and wiring.

As for speed I honestly don't know it sure seems to crank slower than a car but I don't have anyone to crank my truck while I watch the pulley to verify.

Thanks so much to everyone for your time and help, I've put a lot of work into this boat and am so close! I can't wait to post a restoration thread that might help others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 9:00pm
Now that's what I'd call a good post about your issues.

The link below talks about the EEC power fuse update, it sounds like that may have already been done. That would be related to the red wire you found.

link

It sure seems like you're covering all the bases and I think the timing/ignition is definitely worth looking at

Can't think of anything else right now, but keep this updated as you go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 9:10pm
Bingo! Thank you sir! I've heard of the fuse delete and saw the fuse in the wiring diagrams but just figured it was in the main power cable. Puts my mind at ease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2018 at 9:23pm
Bingo, it's running would have been better

Just a thought but could you have flooded this thing with all the troubleshooting?

How do the plugs look right now?

Some people think it's impossible to flood a fuel injected engine. If so, I've accomplished the impossible more than once.

Cranking at full throttle will usually clear things up, but be quick backing off that throttle if it starts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 6:35pm
So I triple checked the timing today. I pulled the plugged and visually verified TDC on #1. I've tried setting the distributor all around it and nothing. Can't even get the popping I got yesterday.

I tested the ignition coil and it's within spec of the manual.

Definitely not flooding the engine which brings my next question. Plugs still look brand new...not a spec of carbon...but the also aren't wet or smell of fuel. Should they? Even with the exhaust stroke sucking put shouldn't there be something on the plugs?

I don't have a test light but am verifying some voltage with my meter going to the injector plug. So if there's fuel in the rail and the injectors are within spec and they're getting a signal from the ecm then the cylinders SHOULD be getting fuel but there's no evidence of that in the cylinder.

I've been reading the manual and the TFI module just tells the coil to fire right? So that can't be the problem...

I'm really at a loss...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 6:44pm
Just guessing here, but is there a crankshaft or camshaft position sensor? I have had those fail in cars before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 7:48pm
According to the manual that comes from the sensor in the distributor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 8:30pm
Is there a way to detect proper signal from that sensor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewy2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

Well the 1st thing I do when an engine doesn't want to start is manually feed it some gas, just because it is the easiest test.

I would just squirt a 1/2 ounce into air intake, put flame arrestor back on & see what happens.

But some will argue checking for spark is even easier   


Get that squirt bottle out and see if there are any signs of internal fire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Mike81 Mike81 wrote:

So if there's fuel in the rail and the injectors are within spec and they're getting a signal from the ecm then the cylinders SHOULD be getting fuel but there's no evidence.
I'm really at a loss...


Have you checked ????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 11:13pm
Squirted some fuel into throttle body and still nothing..

Gundriver how would I check?

Anyone know exactly what the initial timing should be set at? Manual doesn't say (that I can find).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2018 at 11:43pm
There’s a schrader valve on the front of the fuel rail so you can attach a fuel pressure gauge, you can bleed it just like leaving air out of a tire.
I recommend you get a fuel pressure gauge to assist with trouble shooting.

Timing should be set to 5* BTDC @ 2,000 RPM with SPOUT disconnected and the proper octane fuel ( 89 )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 12:08am
Thank you. I mentioned that I have a fuel pressure gauge and have 40 psi at the rail. I've also checked the injectors and injector wiring circuit. That's why I said theoretically the fuel SHOULD be in the cylinders but I have no way to check that for sure.

I set timing to 6 deg BTDC today so that should've beem close enough and then I adjusted each way and still no fire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 12:32am
May be a stoopid comment but u did set tdc on compression stroke.... right?

Edit; also are you using the correct cylinder layout for a ford?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 12:45am
I was wondering that and using the correct firing order and verifying correct rotation of the engine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 2:07am
F*ck, f*ck, f*ck! I am a moron!!

I just realized that my motor is a standard rotation not reverse. TWO different shops told me it was reverse rotation when i gave them the model number. Last week when I bought the starter the guy says "gt40 should be standard" and when he read my model number, PLP PRR12 EFI, he said yea the R means reverse rotation. Ive read that damn manual 100 times and saw that PLP was the gt40 and used that firing order. I saw the decoder page and totally missed that the reverse was the trans not motor. Only when I just went to respond to Gary's post and I opened the pdf manual to copy the firing order did I notice the diagram on pg MT7 says left rotation which led to more research and my realization.

I just read in another post that both reverse and standard rotation motors will turn the rotor counter-clockwise. Mine is turning clockwise which is a sure sign I have the wrong starter. So with any luck I'll get the right starter tomorrow and she will fire up!!

I'll be sure to update and thank you all so much for your time and help!! This is my first inboard boat and I can't believe in the 100s of hours I've spent researching i screwed that up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 10:21am
Sounds like another summer saved by ccfan.... fingers crossed we shall see
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 10:28am
Glad you figured it out.

We all learn in these problem solving cycles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 9:44pm
Well that still didn't solve it. Double checked everything and it sounds better turning over but still no fire. Finally exhausted my (lack of) knowledge and experience and got it to a mechanic this evening. Well see what he figures out...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2018 at 11:48pm
Too bad thought you had it! At least you figured that it out rather than have him spend his time. Let us know what he finds out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2018 at 12:00pm
Well I finally heard back from the mechanic....its the injectors. Even though they test out with the ohm meter they aren't firing. Guess sitting for several years just froze em up. Good news is that apparently I got everything else right with the rebuild including timing.

One was cracked anyway so ill just bite the bullet and get a new set (it's like $75 for one or like $300 for the whole set). And should be good to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2018 at 3:57pm
Hi Mike,
Let us know when you get it up and running.
Then, I can add the injectors to the GT-40 diagnosis thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2018 at 4:10pm
The injectors test out in terms of resistance but did the mechanic use test bulbs to see if the computer was actually signaling the injectors to fire?   New injectors wont do a thing if they are not getting a signal - and the chances of all eight of them dying at once is quite low.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2018 at 4:22pm
Joe I tested the injector wiring and they were getting signal. The mechanic said he confirmed. Keep in mind this wasnt a running motor where they just quit it sat disassembled for 4 years so im guessing they froze up. Well see soon.
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