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Solenoid/Starter mystery wire

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Swellbound View Drop Down
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    Posted: August-21-2017 at 9:53pm
New here but have been utilizing the info for years.

I have a 93 SNOB GT-40 PCM

I had it down in lake powell last week camping and it failed to start one morning. So off goes the cover and we dig into it. After tracking it all the way down to the wire on the ( I ) post on the starter solenoid. It had no power and was preventing the fuel injectors from delivering fuel.

We stole power from the shower pump and just controlled that post with the accessory switch to save the trip and got some great turns in.

I got an new solenoid and installed it. The problem is that I had to leave in the middle of the project and when I returned the next morning I can not figure out where this one small black wire is supposed to go.

I know one end is connected to a bolt that hold the box with the spark plugs down to the bracket. So it is obviously a ground but to WHAT??

I wired to the S termianl but then the boat would not turn over. I then just removed it all together and the boat will turn over and I assume start.

So where should this black wire go??? I am really starting to think that it is not even supossed to go to the solenoid. What else needs a ground right there????

In the pic you can see the black wire still wired to the S terminal


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swellbound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-21-2017 at 9:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swellbound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-21-2017 at 10:05pm
Is it possible that it ties the spark plug wire box to the computer to share a ground??

Really reaching here but if it is not supposed to go the the solenoid it is the only other possibility i can come up with. I can also see how I could have missed the wire when removing the nuts since I was doing it by feel mostly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 8:26am
It might help to see what that black wire is going to on the other side. There shouldn't be a ground wire going to the solenoid at all. The bare metal back of the solenoid should ground it to the bracket or the block.

If that wire is truly a ground, I'm thinking it might have gone to one of the mounting bolts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 10:24am
Here's a wiring diagram for your engine assuming it's a Pro Tec system.



It's not too good on ground wires from the look of things.(edit it really is good on ground wires)

It does show the solenoid wiring and all the rest of the wiring to your control module so you should be able to figure out why you originally lost power to it.

I guess you could blow up this picture or go to the reference section, find the 93 PCM manual and go to page 51 figure 69 for a bigger version.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swellbound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 10:41am
I have concluded that the black wire does indeed go to the mounting bolt for the coil pack and also to the mounting bolt for the computer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 1:15pm
Make sure you update this thread to tell if the solenoid fixed your problem
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 1:19pm
So it probably has no business on a solenoid terminal...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swellbound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 1:43pm
Final solution.

My previous thought was incorrect.


The black wire connects to the coil pack mounting bolt and the solenoid mounting bolt.
The solenoid mounting bolt has 3 or 4 other grounds on it as well.

When I connected the black wire to the coil pack mounting bolt and the computer mounting bolt it would not start.

Also when I tried to start it with the coil pack totally off the mounting plate it would not start either.

My conclusion is that the black wire is a ground that goes directly up into the coil pack via the bare bolt. I am guessing this is used because the mounting plate is painted and thus not a reliable ground.

Also just by way of information the orange wire controls the EFI delivery. For what ever reason that terminal went bad on the solenoid and no fuel would spray out of the injectors. I have seen a lot of diagrams showing this terminal empty but on this 1993 gt-40 it is used.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 2:01pm
Your EFI delivery is really controlled by the wires numbered 26 and 41 thru the 12.5 amp breaker when the engine is running.

The I terminal is receiving no power from the solenoid internal circuitry unless the key is in the START position.

When you release the key to the RUN position there is still power at the I terminal but it's from the connection at the 12.5 amp breaker that you can see in the diagram

So if you lost power like you did originally, I'd figure it was your 12.5 amp breaker being tripped and it sounds like you put power back to the I terminal or the breaker with a jumper and bypassed the breaker.too

Since the boat ran good, I'd think maybe a bad breaker. Sometimes it's hard to tell if it's tripped or reset, but with a multimeter you could figure out if there's continuity through the breaker.

It's a goofy use of the I terminal, but I figure during starting it gives full voltage to the electronics and when you release the key after the engine is started, the big current draw from the starter is gone and the path through the I terminal isn't needed.

Just the same principle as the I terminal being used to bypass the ballast resistor on some engines with a resistor.

So in other words, check out your 12.5 amp breaker and don't throw the old solenoid away 'cause it's probably good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 2:02pm
You have the only 1993 GT-40 known to CCF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 2:25pm
If you didn't bypass the breaker, I'd follow that 41 wire back to the junction with the 28 wire and then to the 8 plug connector and check the connector cleanliness.

Here's an old thread with a picture of a cut apart solenoid and a lot of I terminal discussion

old thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swellbound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 4:44pm
1- I checked and now I actually know what year my boat is and what engine it has.
      - 1994 with a PCM 5.8 HO Boss EFI
thanks for helping me look into that.

2- When I was originally trying to find the problem I was on the lake but did have a light tester and had power in and out of the 12.5 breaker. I can tell that you clearly understand the system better then I though. I am going to order a 12.5 just to have on hand so thanks for the heads up. Now that I am thinking about it all I did yesterday was put the new solenoid in. If the 12.5 breaker was bad wouldn't the problem persist? Unless the 12.5 is just finicky and it happened to be working yesterday??

This place is pretty cool how fast and willing people are willing to help out. Thanks for the replies, already learning a lot. (like the year of my boat )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 5:23pm
The dash breakers decline over time but they are either working or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACS81SN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 5:31pm
I've looked at picture a half dozen times and unless it's an optical illusion in the picture, looks to me like the battery cable is on the wrong terminal on solenoid.   Schematic shows large cable from battery on one large terminal with small 12-14ga. wire coming off of it and another large cable from starter on other large terminal.
Mark

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1981 - SN Owned 33 years - Sold
1968 - Mustang - Sold



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by MACS81SN MACS81SN wrote:

I've looked at picture a half dozen times and unless it's an optical illusion in the picture, looks to me like the battery cable is on the wrong terminal on solenoid.   Schematic shows large cable from battery on one large terminal with small 12-14ga. wire coming off of it and another large cable from starter on other large terminal.

Mark,
The picture is correct for a starter with the actual solenoid on the starter itself. The title of this thread should be "starter relay" as that, in this case, is the function with both the battery cable and then the cable to the starter on the same large post.


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Keep it original, Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 7:57pm
Mark

To clarify what Pete said [Maybe}, I can see what you're saying.

The schematic for the Pro Tec system shows the wiring setup for the old style Ford starter with the remote solenoid or relay whichever you want to call it.

Swellbound's picture is wired for the new style small permanent magnet starter with a solenoid mounted right on it, but the other solenoid/relay is still used but wired differently.

The diagram is for a 93 engine and the new starter came out in 94 or 95 I think with the new wiring arrangement

His may have come that way or maybe it was replaced with the new style over the years.

So, I think you're seeing things right.

BTW, I never thought I'd like the new style starter till I tried one, then I decided it was great Smaller, lighter, easier to handle when changing the starter and it just plain worked better Here's a link to an old thread with a picture of the new style starter and the relay wiring

.old thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 8:01pm
Swellbound

If I was you, I'd feel pretty proud that you saved your vacation with a little troubleshooting and creativity
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2017 at 11:20pm
Swellbound

I'm in South Jordan. Ive got a sister boat...1994 SNOB HO engine.   If you need a hand, give me a shout. I'm pretty good with a wrench. 281-732-4233
1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow
PB = 6 @ 22 Off
Aqua ambulo, ergo sum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2017 at 6:33am
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:

Swellbound

I'm in South Jordan. Ive got a sister boat...1994 SNOB HO engine.   If you need a hand, give me a shout. I'm pretty good with a wrench. 281-732-4233


And JQ has had some experience with that "I terminal" as well during his ProTec removal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2017 at 8:01am
And that chapter ended with KENO tearing down a solenoid to see how they work....

BTW, the "I" terminal is still going strong.

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PB = 6 @ 22 Off
Aqua ambulo, ergo sum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2017 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:


BTW, the "I" terminal is still going strong.
[IMG]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swellbound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2017 at 1:15pm
I will keep your number Jonneyquest thanks.

Next up is my heater core. Same trip and the problem occerd on the test drive after the solenoid relay patch fix.
My buddy just happened to have a 5/8 barb coupler in his boat. I would be somewhat impressed if he had brought his regular tool box but he forgot to load that one and instead just had his basic stuff that was already on the boat. We just bypassed the core. I don't really ever use the heater but might as well get er done while I have the momentum.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACS81SN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2017 at 7:31pm
Ken,

Thanks for the explation.   I've seen this setup in vehicles I've worked on but not in a boat.
Learn a little something here everyday.

The 502 in our ski has one of those small starters, spins that beast right over.
Mark

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1981 - SN Owned 33 years - Sold
1968 - Mustang - Sold



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2017 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

You have the only 1993 GT-40 known to CCF.


+1

The signature line says 1994 SNOB Pro Boss.

Couple of ways to tell. First, take a picture of the engine tag. That will tell us most of the story. Then, take a picture of the engine. My guess is that it's a 1994 ProTech and throttle-body EFI. If it's a Pro Boss, then it does have GT-40 heads. Just the heads, mind you, not everything else on a true GT-40 engine. PCM came out with the GT-40 in 1995.

JQ
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PB = 6 @ 22 Off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-24-2017 at 2:03pm
For Swellbound

Have you actually run this yet since the new solenoid?

I see where you turned it over and assumed it would start, but nothing else.

Call me skeptical, but I think you have the original problem still and will need your jumper setup.
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