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I cannot get this engine to run right

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    Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:15am
1979 Correct Craft Mustang 17 Commander 302
Holley 4160
Holley Red (Marine grade) set at 5psi
'electronic point' conversion (previous owner installed, no idea what brand)

Engine is fresh, literally 0 hours on it. Everything has been checked, rechecked, and triple checked. I had issues with it running like crap down low before I rebuilt it, I tossed it up to the fact that I had 50-60% leakdown on all 8 cylinders at 100psi.   

I can unplug cylinders 5, 6, 2, 3 and it barely makes a difference to how the engine runs. I honestly feel like it's a carb issue but I'm confused as hell because I was meticulous rebuilding it, and if it has me confused that it's cylinders 2 and 3, and not 1 and 2.

I honestly have no idea where to go at the moment. I'm so used to sequential fuel injection and coil on plug builds that I am beating my head against the wall because this should be simple. I'm going to do another leakdown test tomorrow, I have to get an adapter though because my plug wont fit in GT40p heads.

Edit:
I really do feel like it's a carb issue though because I cannot get the idle screws to react in any way. I never could before I rebuilt the carb, I never could before I rebuilt the engine, I still can't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fanofccfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:30am
Electronic ignition good? Some can deal one fits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:30am
Is there even a slight chance that the wrong cam was used?
Reverse rotation?
More common, there are 2 commonly used Ford small block firing orders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:56am
fanofccfan:
I did some searching after you said that, didn't realize people had issues with them. I'll probably run to the store tomorrow and grab the stuff to convert it back to using points. Does it matter if it's automotive or marine in this case, do you know?

MourningWood:
I'm 100% positive what I have is the correct camshaft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:24am
correct cam shaft is one thing, correct firing order is different., and I think that is what MW is driving at.   You can confirm your firing order by rotating the crank and feeling which order the cylinders get their compression stroke in.    This is the most common error that is easily over looked, assuming the cylinders are numbered differently than they are can be a contributing factor.   did you rebuild the carb? or is it the same condition as previously set?    if so, and you suspect a fuel problem, yank the carb and get it cleaned up and rebuilt.    If you did t he engine by yourself, a carb should be no problem as long as you pay attention to the little details.    Carb kits are less than $100 so it is a relatively cheap fix if that is the issue

also a good reminder - #1 on the distributor cap doesnt have a specific place, as long as it lines up with th position of the rotor on the compression stroke of cyl # 1, check the direction that the rotor rotates and follow that direction with your firing order.

- you need to set up your carb idle with a vacuum guage, have you done that yet?   

- cam break in is really important, so you want to get everything set before you run the engine for the first 20 mins.    you need to run consistantly at +2000 rpm.    and you want to get the oil pressure up first so you don't have a dry start.

- can you confirm your compression now, after the rebuild?    if a cam lobe is wiped out from a poor start, it could cause the crappy running condition as well.    

I find that talking through something can help me find the issue, so go ahead and walk us through all that you have checked and how you checked it, we may be able to spot your oversight and point you in the right direction.    

Keep your chin up, this happens to everyone from time to time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:45am
Firing order is correct, I checked it probably 5 times.

I have not set my carb idle with a vacuum gauge. Truthfully the only carbs I have ever used in my life have all been Spanish and Italian Webers. I'm 1000% used to doing things by ear so the use of a vacuum gauge to do anything other than sync is foreign to me. However I still think the carb should react when the idle screws are messed with in some way. Doesn't matter if they're seated or 5 turns out, it's like they do nothing.

I use the hell out of moly lube when assembling an engine, and I did prime it before it ever turned over. This is the same cam/lifters/pushrods/rockers that I used before the rebuild, I just cleaned them up and verified measurements. Everything went back exactly where it came from.

I cannot confirm compression or leakdown until I can get and modify an adapter tomorrow.

Also, I rebuilt the carb back in March. All the passages flow properly, everything is cleaned, everything has a place and everything is in its place. Floats were measured and remeasured. Honestly everything looked fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:39am
Peaked inside the distributor before I went to bed and what fresh hell is this. Yeah they replaced it with an electronic ignition setup, and the lobes are gone so I'm pretty sure I can't put points back in it...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:46am
Using the same cam takes some guesswork away but not all. We know this cam works when properly timed to this engine, your 302.
The cam sprocket could be 180 degrees off to the crank sprocket.
With the valve covers off this could be checked easy. With them on checking will get tricky.
A compression check will tell you if the cam is timed correctly to the camshaft IF the lifters are adjusted properly.
I helped a friend get his 302 running. When I got there it was all messed up and would not start. I checked compression and it was very low.
I asked questions and found out the guy had never before adjusted hydraulic lifters and had them all cranked down till the valves were hung open.
Unfortunately by the time I was called in he had already drained the battery trying to start the engine. He had already wiped a couple cam lobes so after we got it started a couple lifters would adjust to be quiet and then start tapping a minute later. Classic sign of the cam going flat.   I installed a new cam and lifters and it now purrs.
I hope yours does not have this issue. How did you adjust your used lifters?

As Dreaming pointed out the cam if not factory could have the 302 fire order or the 351W fire order, they do differ. You need to know what cam you installed.
Many performance cams use the 351W fire order.

I'm not a fan of moly lube on assembly. You want to use assembly lube. Moly lube can actually repel oil on start up where assembly lube mixes well with Oil on start up so you don't have a transition from one to the other.
Sealed Power makes a quality assembly lube. Part # LL-5. It meets the OE manufacturers qualifications for assembly lube. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, BMW, International, Detroit, Cummins Etc. Companies that build thousands of engines demand a quality assembly lube I follow their lead. I think Comp Cams sells a good assembly lube also.

Also an older Nautique will be reverse rotation. Make sure the fire order is set up based on the direction your distributor rotates.
Did you replace the starter? We have seen guys install a standard rotation starter in a reverse rotation engine. They won't start in reverse.
I hope your issue is simple and a quick fix, these are just some more ideas to rule out.
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:50am
If you are getting spark to the plugs assume that distributor is working. If no spark, plan B is in effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:05am
The valvetrain was set with an old school method. When the pushrod is no longer able to move up/down between the lifter and rocker, make sure the wrench turns less than 1 full turn before it's tight. Shim the rocker if it goes too far. All rockers are set to about 3/4 turn. Make sure the pushrod spins with the rocker tightened down, this will let you know if there is pressure being applied to the valve (giving you a hanging valve). All this is simply to set the preload.

Also, we're a little beyond using the moly vs assembly lube at the moment, I understand what you're saying though.

It should be the factory cam, I'm not sure if the engine was ever opened prior to me getting it, I can tell the oil pan was resealed at least, but beyond that it all looked like factory internals. The camshaft and valvetrain never left my shop as the block/heads/rods/pistons went to the machine shop.

I followed the firing order as listed below.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:14am
For future reference if anybody digs this up in a search, here is the firing order difference between the 302 and 351.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:44am
I couldn't wait for the morning, I went and verified, it is 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8 going CCW. According to the manual I have a 351 camshaft, but according to my valve cover which clearly states "Model 4V 302 Commander" that is the stock 302 firing order.

So, my firing order is correct. I verified this with the camshaft (valve covers off, rotating engine).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 7:31am
13726548 is a standard rotation firing order. The boat would have had a reverse rotation engine in it originally with the 18456273 FO. How are you determining where to put plug wire #1 on the cap?

Have you positively verified you have spark at all 8cyl? If not, that would indicate the EI kit is giving you problems and not triggering all the time. Possible bad electronics, possible magnet or spacing issues. Tough to troubleshoot without knowing the brand. Sadly, most people throw out the points plate and cam when converting, making it impossible to convert back (a new distributor may be in your future).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:34am
Originally posted by KooK KooK wrote:

For future reference if anybody digs this up in a search, here is the firing order difference between the 302 and 351.



For future reference you should at least get it right and have this say "Here is the firing order difference between an EARLY 302 and a 351"   

Later 302's use the same cam and firing order as the 351

You could also mention that the firing orders shown are for standard rotation engines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:44am
Originally posted by KooK KooK wrote:

I couldn't wait for the morning, I went and verified, it is 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8 going CCW. According to the manual I have a 351 camshaft, but according to my valve cover which clearly states "Model 4V 302 Commander" that is the stock 302 firing order.

So, my firing order is correct. I verified this with the camshaft (valve covers off, rotating engine).


You seem to be saying that you have a reverse rotation engine with the later 302 firing order which is the same as a 351.

If that's the case why are you saying you verified the correct firing order to be 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8 going CCW.

I'll put it in all caps.......... THAT"S A NORMAL ROTATION FIRING ORDER. like TRB mentioned

Looking at the time of your post, I figure you're tired and need to look at things again this morning

You want the order to be 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3 going CCW around the cap if you have a reverse rotation engine

And.........your rotor should be spinning CCW when the engine is cranking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:49am
Your distributor is a Prestolite and with that reluctor wheel where you're expecting the missing points cam to be it tells me it's a Prestolite electronic module. You only show the bottom of the plate. Flip the plate back down and take a picture to really verify that it's a Prestolite module.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:59am
Also you talk about your lifter adjustment, do you have an adjustable valve train or is it the stock Ford setup that's non adjustable.?

Your description of valve adjustment makes it sound like it's adjustable because it sounds like the description for adjusting Chevy valves, not Ford which aren't adjustable without going to aftermarket parts, shims etc.

edit after reading your description a few times it sounds good as far ar the lifter adjustment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 9:29am
May be a dumb question but you are familiar with Ford cylinder numbering right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 10:00am
There is a gap adjustment on that dizzy. It needs to be .010 inch between reluctor & pickup. You are supposed to use a brass feeler gage. Just FYI.

Where in Iowa are you located?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:55pm
SNobsessed:
Des Moines, if you're offering to take a peak at it I will, by all means, bring it by regardless of where you are in Iowa.

KENO:
Ford is the only domestic manufacturer that I work with. I am familiar with them and their cylinder arrangement.

Also, the firing order is 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3 as you stated. I was writing that last night at 1-2am and got my numbers backwards.

TRBenj:
I am determining cylinder 1 visually by lining the cap up with the rotor, and sending that wire to cylinder one and going from there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by KooK KooK wrote:


TRBenj:
I am determining cylinder 1 visually by lining the cap up with the rotor, and sending that wire to cylinder one and going from there.

I don't understand. What are you lining the cap and rotor up to? Please elaborate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by KooK KooK wrote:


TRBenj:
I am determining cylinder 1 visually by lining the cap up with the rotor, and sending that wire to cylinder one and going from there.

I don't understand. What are you lining the cap and rotor up to? Please elaborate.

I think I understood! He states "that wire to #1" That would be correct as long as #1 is TDC on the compression stroke.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:19pm
Well that's one of the Prestolite modules you have there.

I figure you mean that with #1 at TDC on the compression stroke you're seeing where the rotor is pointing and that terminal is your #1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:23pm
That is one option (the correct one), let's confirm that's what was done vs following this diagram.
Originally posted by KooK KooK wrote:

For future reference

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:23pm
Here we go again, me and Pete agreeing with each other
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


I figure you mean that with #1 at TDC on the compression stroke you're seeing where the rotor is pointing and that terminal is your #1


Exactly. I mean the engine runs, just not on all 8. With it running I did set it to 10 degrees BTDC at the specified RPM. I'm pretty sure the firing order is correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KooK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

That is one option (the correct one), let's confirm that's what was done vs following this diagram.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:19pm
Well the order is backwards in the photo compared to the diagram. That could be it.

I am in Waterloo/CF area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:21pm
Your lifter adjustment is perfect for new lifters.
If I read this correctly you installed the used lifters on the used camshaft.
If this was done each lifter should be reinstalled on the exact lifter bore it originally ran in.
If you mixed the lifters up you will need to do a cam breakin on start up.

Installing used lifters takes a different adjustment.
With previously run lifters you tighten them only till you lose up and down play and you are done.
You may have bottomed out a couple lifters hanging valves partially open.
If the engine is running you can back them off while running and adjust them.
It is messy, oil will squirt from the push rods. Special clips are available to help or you can make a splash guard out of cardboard to avoid mess.
I hope you don't need to do this.
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