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Very Hot blooded Python, overheating 210

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    Posted: August-17-2016 at 2:05pm
Hello, I'm writing to see if anybody here can have some idea of what's going on with my engine.
1999 Super Air Nautique 210 with the 8.2L 502 Python engine stock, no mods, ran fine for the 3 years I owned it until now.
The steering cable broke, and to replace it, I disconnected the hose that goes from the transmission cooler ot the raw water pump, so the suction side. After I put the new cable in, I forgot to connect this hose. When I took the boat to the lake, it overheated, of course, it ran about 4 minutes before we realized and stopped it. I put a new impeller in since I always carry a spare and connected the hose. Ran it and saw a lot of water coming out of the circulation pump. So we took the boat out of the water.
I changed the gasket on the rear plate of the circulation pump because it looked like it had failed. I also took out some impeller pieces that had made it to the pump, though the majority seemed to be in the V-drive cooler, which I cleaned too.
Ran the boat at home with a garden hose, no problem, took it to the lake, and the circulation pump was still leaking and the engine overheating. Back home, installed new circulation pump. Back to the lake and a few minutes later, overheating again. Hose from the circulation pump to the thermostat developed a leak. Hose not in stock anywhere, found that Marine Parts Guys had more leverage than I did with PCM and had them make a hose for me. Very dissapointed with PCM, I had 8 PCM engines over many years, first time they let me down. Put a new thermostat since I was at it.
Go to the lake, idling fine, temp came to normal, start pulling, overheating again. Just to test, I took out the thermostat to see what happend, nothing changed. Overheating again. I started disconnecting hoses and testing, raw water pump pumps water; circulation pump seems to run well, both pumps are new. New J hose, I can't find any clogging anywhere.
I am really confused as to what could be making my engine overheat, I came up with these options:
-Broken impleller blade bocking some very important passage I don't know, anybody knows if there is one that could cause this?
-Blown head gasket that lets compression escape to the water jacket but no water goes into the oil, big enough to do this but small enough not to be detected by a compression test, is this possible?
-Spirit of dead wakeboarder jealous that we can still wakeboard interfering with my engine.
-Most likely, something else that could cause this and I didn't notice.
Any ideas are welcome.
Thank you for your time reading this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2016 at 3:06pm
Overtightened clamp on the transmission cooler collapsed the end of the cooler causing an air leak?   Most likely an air leak on the suction side somewhere, not a head gasket leak if you cant detect it with a compression test.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by alalor1 alalor1 wrote:


-Blown head gasket that lets compression escape to the water jacket but no water goes into the oil, big enough to do this but small enough not to be detected by a compression test, is this possible?


I've been chasing a similar overheating issue on my '89 Ski. I finally gave in and took it to the dealer and they diagnosed it as a blown head gasket. No water in the oil and the compression is good. They said exactly what you said above "small enough not to be detected by a compression test, but enough exhaust gasses escaping causing it to run hot"...So according to my mechanic, yes it is possible, but some on this forum are skeptical of the diagnosis. They used a fluid block tester and plumbed a "T" into the hose between the exhaust manifold and tstat housing...Fluid changed color indicating exhaust gas in cooling system. I talked to Vince at Discount Inboard Marine and a rep at PCM and they both told me it is possible. I plan on doing some more diag on it before tearing it down, but the more I've researched the issue it seems more and more likely that it is indeed a bad head gasket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

not a head gasket leak if you cant detect it with a compression test.

what marine cooling system can hold 100+ psi?

If you had a blown head gasket how would you not have sucked water into the cylinder by now? I'm just not buying that theory.

I would be taking apart the exhaust manifolds and hoses looking for blockages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alalor1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 3:19pm
I can imagine that possible, the pressure inside the combustion chamber is really high, the water pressure inside the engine block is very low, usually below 10 psi, so it is a lot more probable for compression to go into the cooling system than water going into the cylinder. If a very small amount of water went into the cylinder during the intake stroke, it could be evaporated before it mixed with the oil, so it would be very difficult to detect.
I still think my engine's problem is a blocked cooling passage I can't find. But I'm usually wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 3:26pm
Do you get " steam" from the breather tubes/valve covers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 3:48pm
Lots of things are possible, exhaust escaping out of a headgasket through an opening that is not detectable with a compression test making a boat overheat… is just not very darn likely.   Stuff downstream from your melted impellor is more likely but more often seen as causing local overheating not system wide, a suction side leak is most likely. People overtighten transcoolers all the time, this boat just had the hose off the transcooler… ipso facto check the transmission cooler (and strainer) firstly and completely before doing the hard stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 3:52pm
yes, suction side inspection as joe already said is expected

exactly what is your driveway running setup?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 4:13pm
Here is my question- and sorry to hijack the thread. From what I understand exhaust and water mix at the riser elbow, so if exhaust gasses are detected in the cooling system before they mix, wouldn't this indicate a bad head gasket?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 4:23pm
Perhaps you could explain exactly how a compromised head gasket could allow exhaust gas to enter the cooling system (that should be easy) without water entering the cylinder, either when the piston travels down -drawing a vacuum- (this will be trickier) or when the engine is off, in which case water will pool up around the piston and eventually drain past the rings (this will be harder). I don't quite see it either.

Blockage or air leak seem much more plausible. But, i might be inclined to do a bucket test on the RWP too. Be aware that impeller pieces can and will travel backwards in the cooling system- so check the path all the way from the hull pick up. Also a dumb question- the new impeller is a quality part from the oem (jabsco/sherwood) or PCM, and not a Sierra or off brand, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 4:29pm
pressurized cooling system + intake stroke = water in cylinder

evaporate schmevaporate. there is nowhere for this water to go once in the chamber regardless of it's phase. give it up already or pull the head and prove us all wrong. this would be the first documented case of such a condition
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alalor1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 5:33pm
Hello.
Thank you for all your ideas. I will block the raw water intake hose right by the water pick up and pressurize it with my garden hose and that will show me if I have any vacuum leaks in the intake, I am hoping that is the case as many suggested.
By the way, when I run the engine, I get plenty of hot water on both exhausts, so some water is getting all the way to the exhaust as it should, and the engine seems to maintain temperature well at idle, it starts overheating after it starts pulling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by alalor1 alalor1 wrote:

Hello.
Thank you for all your ideas. I will block the raw water intake hose right by the water pick up and pressurize it with my garden hose and that will show me if I have any vacuum leaks in the intake.

Alejandro,
This may or may not work. Pressure VS. a vacuum may have a different effect on hose connections. Also, water may not pass through a void as easily as air? Give it a try and report back.

As suggested, I too recommend the bucket test.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by bb12 bb12 wrote:

Here is my question- and sorry to hijack the thread. From what I understand exhaust and water mix at the riser elbow, so if exhaust gasses are detected in the cooling system before they mix, wouldn't this indicate a bad head gasket?


This is in the words of Yogi Berra kinda like deja vu all over again

BB12's thread

So BB12 haven't seen any additions to your thread, whats happening with your issue?

Sounds like you're still on the head gasket bandwagon. That would be a pretty uncrowded wagon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by bb12 bb12 wrote:

Here is my question- and sorry to hijack the thread. From what I understand exhaust and water mix at the riser elbow, so if exhaust gasses are detected in the cooling system before they mix, wouldn't this indicate a bad head gasket?


This is in the words of Yogi Berra kinda like deja vu all over again

BB12's thread

So BB12 haven't seen any additions to your thread, whats happening with your issue?

Sounds like you're still on the head gasket bandwagon. That would be a pretty uncrowded wagon.


Haha I don't want to be on the head gasket bandwagon! I hope like hell its not a blown head gasket!! I haven't had a chance to mess with the boat yet...obligations, kids and work are getting in the way!! Hopefully this weekend I can pull it out and tinker.

First test will be bucket test running straight from RWP to bucket. I wish I could find a known good RWP to test with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 7:39pm
Tickets for that bandwagon are expensive too.

I think I'd make the second test no thermostat at all out on the water running the boat normally.

It won't be worse, might be better, but whatever the results are, it'll give you a data point to compare to your original numbers.

It might run cool, like 120 or so but you won't hurt anything especially short term for testing.

Oh and by the way, get back into your own thread with whatever stuff you do

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Hello, I tried with no thermostat, and it overheated too, but I will try it again anyway.
Today's test
I blocked the hose from the strainer to the intake and put water in the T I have right after the strainer for the garden hose, I could not find any leak, but I had water coming out the hose from the raw water pump to the thermostat housing, meaning the raw water pump was letting some water through. I took out the raw water pump cover, and the impeller seemed to be OK, all vanes there, bending the right way. I tried to take it out to inspect it better, but no luck with screw driver o with needle nose pliers (leatherman). Any tips for this?
I will run water on different hoses individually to test them tomorrow when I have more water appropriate clothes.
So, that's the progress so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alalor1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 10:17pm
I forgot to answer Hollywood's question. Right after the strainer, I added a threaded elbow and a threaded T of the same size of the hose adapter (I think it was 1.5" but could be 1", what ever was there I respected it) and to the T, I put a reducer and a garden hose adapter with a ball valve, so I can connect the hose and open the ball valve to run the engine on the driveway, or I can close the ball valve to run the engine on the lake. When the ball valve is closed, I can't see any water coming through, so I guess there are no leaks there, but I could be wrong again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2016 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by alalor1 alalor1 wrote:


Today's test
I blocked the hose from the strainer to the intake and put water in the T I have right after the strainer for the garden hose, I could not find any leak,
So, that's the progress so far.

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by alalor1 alalor1 wrote:

Hello.
Thank you for all your ideas. I will block the raw water intake hose right by the water pick up and pressurize it with my garden hose and that will show me if I have any vacuum leaks in the intake.

Alejandro,
This may or may not work. Pressure VS. a vacuum may have a different effect on hose connections. Also, water may not pass through a void as easily as air? Give it a try and report back.

As suggested, I too recommend the bucket test.

The pressure from the garden hose will give you false results. Run the bucket test.


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THank you. I will run a bucket test. Should I also try to put a clear hose on the hose going into the thermostat housing and look for bubbles?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 12:56am
That ball valve hose hook up...do you block the intake on the bottom of the boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scootdogydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 9:26am
I'd work on changing that impeller. You want to get a Sherwood 10615K. Did you put that model in it? I'm not sure how well this would work, but I'd also attempt an infrared thermometer at the crank driven RWP to see if that is heating up beyond idle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 10:03am
Originally posted by alalor1 alalor1 wrote:

I forgot to answer Hollywood's question. Right after the strainer, I added a threaded elbow and a threaded T of the same size of the hose adapter .


Before or after you started having problems. Working at idle but not at higher speeds is classic to air leak, or restricted strainer on the suction side of the pump. I would remove it or at least cap it to make sure it isn't allowing air back through it... no pressure there so you wouldn't see a leak..    This thread needs pictures...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 10:11am
Air leak between pick up and RWP has always reared its head at idle (not on the hose though) but masked at higher speed, in my experience. Overheats at speed would indicate an obstruction or a RWP/impeller issue.

Still, joes recommendation is a good one- look closely at all components that changed around the time you started having issues.

You seem to be missing some key advice and are not answering some key questions. I would recommend reading this entire thread from the beginning and addressing all questions/concerns. I would bet that someone has already started pulling on the right string...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 11:00am
And I'm not quite following what procedures you have done and are planning on following.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alalor1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 9:19pm
Hello
I am checking every posting everybody made. I really appreciate everybody's input.
I was skeptical on the vacuum side, I can see it being a problem at low rpm, but my engine overheats while pulling a wakeboarder, around 2500 rpm. But I respect everybody's opinion and I took apart every connection of the water intake, checked it and put it back. I am planning on putting a clear hose right before the thermostat housing so I can see if there are any bubbles, I think that should be a good test and shows I'm paying attention to everybody's input.
So, what I've done in the order I did it:
-New impeller from Buxton Marine
-New Circulation pump
-tested without thermostat
-New J hose (circulation pump to thermostat housing)
-Compression test: 135 psi on all cylinders except cylinder 3 (as per GM numbering) that had 155, Should have repeated this cylinder.
-Pressurized water intake and looked for leaks
-connected the water intake to a bucket, sucked all the water from the bucket in a few minutes with no issues.
Today:
-Ran water on circuit from raw water pump to thermostat (through v-drive cooler) , passed, no obstructions
-Ran water on hoses from thermostat housing to exhaust manifolds, passed, no obstructions or back pressure (started the engine right after to clear any water that could have gone the wrong way due to lack of engine flow during the test)
-Ran water from top of block to end of j-hose , no problem. Tried it backwards, same thing, no noticeable obstructions.
I'm going to take the boat out tomorrow and test it with the clear hose if I can find a spring to keep it from collapsing or kinking.
Maybe one of these things I did magically fixed it. It never overheated in my driveway.
I'll keep everybody posted.
If there's anything I forgot, and should have done, please let me know, I think I paid attention to everything everybody wrote.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 10:20pm
Take some pics of everything while you're out there.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by alalor1 alalor1 wrote:

New impeller from Buxton Marine

Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

the new impeller is a quality part from the oem (jabsco/sherwood) or PCM, and not a Sierra or off brand, right?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2016 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by alalor1 alalor1 wrote:

connected the water intake to a bucket, sucked all the water from the bucket in a few minutes with no issues. .

How long is a "few" minutes? At idle, the RWP should drain the bucket in about a minute at most.


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Thank you
How do I attach pictures?
I did not time how long it took to empty the bucket.
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