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1995 GT-40 Fuel Pump/FCC conversion

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:43pm
Gary
I think those cheap Rockauto pumps were the lower pressure 25psi for the protect type systems.
I know the 962 could be had a lot cheaper (when they were available) through auto parts stores than what the marine sites were selling them for but I don't think they were that cheap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:52pm
Gary--someday we will All have stroker 383 Boss Pro engines with quick fuel carbs!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2016 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by tryathlete tryathlete wrote:

Gary--someday we will All have stroker 383 Boss Pro engines with quick fuel carbs!

Why such a small one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2016 at 5:18am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I don't know about the bad plan part, I saw in some of those threads that just about a year ago or so that rock auto was closing out those pumps for around 20 bucks. 60 bucks and you'd be set for life. What I'm not happy with is the planned obsolescence, PCM has no support of these complex proprietary systems. Someday we will just have to trade in every year or two like those on PN


Note on the LOW PRESSURE PUMP, the low pressure pump design is a rotary Vane pump. The pump is not nearly as sensitive to fuel starvation as the High Pressure pump.
That design can pull fuel from your tank really well normally.   This design is so popular in Motor Homes and many Diesel trucks that it won't be going obsolete any time soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote skiwedowee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2017 at 10:50pm
Just posting my experience with this issue. 1995 gt-40 nautique. Problem was intermittent and became worse with time/temperature change. Checked codes, indicated a clogged injector/s...had this problem a few years back and had injectors cleaned. Now I think maybe a weak fuel pump was the culprit? Doesn't matter...boat runs great now.
My solution to the discontinued dual inlet pump. Carter p-61171 marine pump... summit, jegs, rock auto....wherever. The inlet thread size is 5/8-18 female ....needs to connect to a an6 female. summit number is fra-491956. Outlet metal line can be bent by hand to connect back with the fuel rail...total cost is less than 100 dollars. Cap the stainless line after removal at right side of engine. Don't know why some say to leave it and don't know why anyone would fabricate a fuel cell. for 600 dollars. Hope that helps someone as you guys have helped me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2017 at 11:40pm
Yes I did this a year ago but did not have enough test time on it to feel 100% on recommending to everyone. Since you seem to feel it's a good fix can you post some pics.
Hardest part is finding the 5/8x 18 reducer/bushing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skiwedowee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2017 at 11:54pm
Sure, ill get some posted....I haven't tested it much either but from the research that I've done, I don't foresee any problems. The only questionable issue is the removal of the stainless line since CC found the need to install it but since a pump of that design no longer exists there really is no other option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2017 at 12:07am
Great thanks
Also where did you find the 5/8x18 bushing? I found mine at a local place that makes custom hydraulic lines but I had to cut it down which the basic guy would have troubles doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skiwedowee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2017 at 12:20am
Summit had it...about 7 dollars....Part number in the post Also on e-bay and many places online....Just had to call Carter and find out what size it was.....You won't find it at hardware stores. I had a few AN fittings laying around....I'm a retired mechanic from Northwest Airlnes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2017 at 1:23am
I have stopped for the year on converting mine to the FCC.Turns out that on the v drive boats that the strainer and trans cooler reside in the place that the FCC needs to go. So the oem pumps need to come out from where they are and longer water intake hoses rerouted to where the strainer and cooler will then take their place. Not sure if I need longer hydraulic hoses for the trans either. If I didn't have all the important parts, your way is easier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2017 at 3:14am
I had full confidence the conversion would work. My factory pump still works so I will not change my set up. The 95 was the first attempt by CC to install this fuel injection system. They did not get it right on the first try. It works well till it fails.   Your conversion to the Carter will last till that pump wears out. Don't let it run out of fuel and that will be a very long time.   All these pumps are fuel lubricated so running out of gas even once can fry the pump. Glad it worked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2017 at 12:06pm
Mark, 20 years on a pump isn't to bad to me. I'll throw another $75 pump in it and run for another 20. You can do the $800 conversion if you wish.

Thanks Scott for the update I thought it would work just didn't have the time to put into testing.
I also don't know what you mean about bending the line? If I remember right it fit in exactly like the old one was I think I had to swap some fitting but it was a direct replacement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlfaDon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2017 at 8:39am
This is a great thread. Thanks for all of the input. I hope it continues when the boats come back out in the spring.
I'm converting carb to EFI using an OMC system off of a 5.0 Cobra motor.
It has a fuel cooler at the back of the manifold near the fuel pressure regulator. Actually the HPP mounts to the top of the fuel cooler. It appears to be an attempt at not using a return line to the tank, but the excess fuel from the rail and regulator gets dumped into the cooler. The Fuel cooler gets water from the Fresh water inlet right after the water strainer. From what I've seen in manuals, it didn't last very long, so I'm not sure what to expect.

I may have missed something in the discussion, but I wonder if the reason a return line wasn't used was because of the regulations about pressurized fuel in the bilge? The return line would have nominal pressure to get it back to the tank.

Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rkilcoyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2018 at 10:43pm
Has anyone here had a chance to draw any conclusions on using the Carter pump in place of the NLA HPP?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skiwedowee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2018 at 11:29pm
Fuel cooler? Why would the fuel need to be cooled? There is an oil cooler beneath my HPP. My 95 gt40 runs better than it ever has since replacing the pump.I believe there are different configurations with the fuel systems around those years but I would call the fuel pump replacement on mine almost a stock part replacement .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rkilcoyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2018 at 11:38pm
@skiwedowee A couple questions:

1. Does the existing power connector plug directly into this carter pump?

2. Does the existing outlet line tie directly into the outlet on this pump with just a little bending of the line?

3. Anything else needed besides the adapter for the inlet?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2018 at 1:18am
Originally posted by skiwedowee skiwedowee wrote:

Fuel cooler? Why would the fuel need to be cooled?


Mercury Marine calls it a fuel cooler sounds like it's their version of a PCM FCC. I believe their thinking the fuel cools the pump



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlfaDon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2018 at 1:48am
I believe there were a lot of problems with Vapor lock from hot fuel after shutting down the engine and trying to restart it. Also because excess hot fuel is returning to the tank.

As for the Carter fuel pump, the ones I’m familiar with are like the Airtex and are low pressure. But I’ve also missed a lot of the conversation about replacing the NLA pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baitkiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2018 at 10:20am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

If I understand this now correctly. The return line in this system is dumping fuel into the inlet of the HighPressure Pump through the second connection at the bottom of the pump.
If this is the layout this could be the issue.
Normal electric fuel pumps receive fuel from the tank only. The return line is separate and returns the fuel from the fuel pressure regulator direct to the fuel tank, a separate fuel run all the way to the tank. It is usually smaller in diameter than the supply line.

If PCM decided it was OK to return the hot fuel from the fuel rail to your high pressure pump to be pressurized again and pushed into the fuel rail again feeding your fuel injectors you might be seeing a heat sink issue and the fuel is vaporizing causing vapor lock.   My 95 would have the same system but I can't look at it right now. My garage is tied up with another short term project on my truck, new ball joints and the boat is temporarily covered with a tarp outside. I don't wish to untie for this check.   

This is the only Electric Fuel Pump I have seen that uses a Closed Loop system for the fuel return. In the 90's I went through a week long Carter Fuel Training class to learn Electric Fuel Pump technology.   I have seen most Automotive and Marine set ups.
I think we should create a solution for this. The pumps will last longer also.
Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2018 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:



Mercury Marine calls it a fuel cooler sounds like it's their version of a PCM FCC. I believe their thinking the fuel cools the pump

That’s how BRP cools the high pressure pump on the E-Tec motors. The fuel cools the pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2018 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by baitkiller baitkiller wrote:

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:



If PCM decided it was OK to return the hot fuel from the fuel rail to your high pressure pump to be pressurized again   

This is the only Electric Fuel Pump I have seen that uses a Closed Loop system for the fuel return. In the 90's I went through a week long Carter Fuel Training class to learn Electric Fuel Pump technology.   I have seen most Automotive and Marine set ups.
I think we should create a solution for this. The pumps will last longer also.

Cool being a relative term, what is the temperature and at what temperature does it harm the pump? What did the Carter training tell you?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2018 at 10:39pm
Pete, the Carter school was dealing with Automotive set ups and they all use a full flow of cool fuel direct from the fuel tank. The return line is also direct to the fuel tank, in automotive these two do not mix. It is always supply and return.
The return line from the fuel rail to the high pressure pump may be there to help make sure there is some fuel to lubricate the HPP on start up. The Low pressure pump may take a few seconds to pull the supply fuel from the tank.   The HPP needs fuel 100% of the time to avoid a dry start that can harm the pump motor bushings that are fuel lubricated.
In automotive the fuel pump is located inside the fuel tank so it never has a dry start condition unless you run very low on fuel.
In our boats the Low Pressure Pump is several feet away from the fuel tank so there may be delay while it is sucking fuel from the tank to start supplying fuel to the High Pressure Pump.
We have discussed the second return line before but I never thought about the potential dry start before. This might be the answer for why the second line is in the factory set up.
The newer FCC fuel pumps on 96 and newer use a reservoir around the pump inlet to provide the HPP with fuel on start to lubricate it and give faster prime speeds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rkilcoyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 4:16pm
Just wrapped up the install of the FCC Retro kit on my 1995 GT-40. Feel free to ask questions. Not the cheapest route, but runs fantastic.

https://youtu.be/w-q-cyoaUAo
https://youtu.be/Efwh8R6XH9A

~Rick

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 4:42pm
Sounds great - Good job!

Here are the direct links for the vids:

Link 1
Link 2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlfaDon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 7:33pm
I'd love to see a write up about how you did the modifications. Pictures are always great too.

Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rkilcoyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 7:51pm
After it was all done, I thought the same to myself AlfaDon... I'll work on a doc this weekend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 9:48pm
Pretty straight install on a DD I'm sure, it's the v drives that take more work. Strainer and transcooler have to be moved to the other side of the boat in addition to angling the thru hull to that side. Longer intake hose is needed but not sure yet if transcooler hoses are long enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2018 at 12:05am
Gary that’s what you get for buying one of those A$$ pushers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2018 at 1:07am
I knew many Correct Crafts ran bacerds,too late I realized the whole dang engine is in there bacerds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jmattison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-04-2018 at 6:08pm
Thinking of doing the same. Are there any pictures?
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