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Mustang 17 rebuild

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 1:30pm
Hi Duane

Most likely, your reverse clutch plate broke. There is only one in the transmission.and when it cracks, it spreads a little and the teeth no longer engage the ring gear and it's kinda spooky when you put it in reverse and nothing happens, no warning, no funny noises either.
Some were made of fiber and some were made of metal. I think the fiber ones break easier.

It could be adjustment or a spool valve issue also but chances are it's the clutch plate,

A Borg Warner manual is in the reference section here on CCF

You can find rebuild kits with a pretty wide range of prices.

Some of the kits have fiber forward clutch plates and some have sintered bronze

Some have a fiber reverse plate and some have metal.

By the way, don't listen to anything Pete says about transmissions, he thinks there's only one person in existence who can rebuild one and he isn't doing it anymore.

That outfit is run by somebody else now, it's Fantastic Finish Marine in Medina Ohio.

You should have no trouble rebuilding one knowing your capabilities.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 2:59pm
found this one
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B001IVPUR8/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

or should a guy go for this one with a new pump??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Velvet-Drive-Marine-70C-71C-72C-1017-1018-Transmission-Master-Kit-Stage-4-/261564903942?hash=item3ce67bb206:g:eW8AAOSwuWVWEvU6&vxp=mtr

Hate to not have the new parts in front of me when I tear it down, tend to forget too much in between.

There are others also that are on e-Bay.   Which ones are the good ones and which are not???

TimB,   yes to the good GPS for true readings. Not really too concerned cause it goes good enough to suit me, but real data is nice to have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Hi Duane
By the way, don't listen to anything Pete says about transmissions, he thinks there's only one person in existence who can rebuild one and he isn't doing it anymore.

Dropping a clutch pack in isn't a rebuild! Even you can do that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 3:12pm
Here is another place but you'll have to do the homework as I have no experience with them or the parts ebasic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Here is another place but you'll have to do the homework as I have no experience with them or the parts ebasic


I would bet these guys sell more velvet drive parts than just about anyone.. and certainly I would buy their kit before the sierra ones listed on your amazon link (i have bought more than a dozen kits from them).   The pump likely didn't cause your no reverse issue so I don't know that I would buy one just to have it... I wouldn't invest a lot of money into getting parts for it until after you have opened it up and know the failure mode as you may have broken something too expensive to fix.   The kits don't include the roller bearings either but they usually don't need to be replaced unless there has been water/debris/ or alignment issues so wait on those too.. Also be sure that you have shifted by hand at the transmission into reverse and found it still not to work before you pull it apart.

Its not rocket science - the service manual is in the reference section and assuming you have a decent press there you will be all set... if you end up fabricating any of the special tools you can sell them to me when your done - I use an ugly mish mash of stuff to press and it slows me down enough that I usually try to rebuild 3 at a time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Here is another place but you'll have to do the homework as I have no experience with them or the parts ebasic


I've used a kit from ebasicpower like what Gary linked to.

Also used genuine Borg Warner stuff

Really saw no difference in how the transmission worked with genuine B/W or generic at least with stock HP levels

There are a whole bunch of generic kits for these things usually with steel or sintered bronze plates

Just me, but if the pump was working and the front seal wasn't leaking I think you're OK without a new pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 4:22pm
Hi Duane

Just went and looked at my kit in the garage, it's the same kit as Gary's link.

Alto 023901. made in the US of A

Steel and sintered bronze plates

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 6:07pm
[/QUOTE] Dropping a clutch pack in isn't a rebuild! Even you can do that. [/QUOTE]

OK Pete, here's your chance to fill me in on what a rebuild consists of. I plan to pull the tranny and put it on the bench for an autopsy.

I appreciate all the help and assistance I can get from everyone..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 7:09pm
Full rebuild-

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2017 at 7:33pm
So true, Gary!!!!😉
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2017 at 7:08pm
Three more hours on the water today. Time to install the motor box and a few other items. All seems OK with the new engine and the rebuilt tranny.   Just learning what the boat likes and dislikes. Starts to porpoise in mid 40's but normally you can drive thru them and it smooths out in the 50+ range.   Love the out of the hole acceleration and the same from 25 and up mph. So far lots of fun. Running an Acme 540 now and picked up a 422 just for a backup. Don't know what it will do. 12.5 X 15.5 4 blade. It may be a waste but I figured it would be a spare.
Any thoughts?? Turning the 540 5500+rpm   Would really like to find something that would work in the 5000 range



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2017 at 7:16pm
It won't pull that 422, unfortunately. I assume you believe your tach?

540 seems like too much diameter for a M17, how is your prop clearance? Those boats ran 12" props, originally. They make a 1210 for this application (the 12.5" diam version of the 540) that works very well on the 16' 302 boats. The 1214 (12.5"x13") is the next step up and would likely put you in the 5100-5200 range... probably right where you want to be.

Have you GPS'd the boat yet with an accurate device? I would think you'd be close to 54-55 (if the tach isn't lying).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2017 at 8:14pm
Tim, I relieved the hull area for more prop clearance similar to what you did. I have plenty of clearance when I put the 422 on for mock up. Yes on the GPS. Used my Garmin and shows 55+ mph.   Got to 57 on one pass but with slight breeze behind me. Can't really let it run out because I hit the chip on the rev limiter. Don't really want to put in a 6000 chip. More comfortable in the 5200 range.   I guess I need to put the 422 on just to see. When I bought it I thought it was too much also. Like I said before, just got it for a back up

Thanks for the reply.
These little boats sure are fun.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 10:17am
Duane, Let Tim comment on this since I have no experience with the smaller boats but if you truly have the room for a 13" prop then the next step up from a 540 is a 430. 13x13 Acme. It will tame your rpm's and my experience with it on a 2nd gen Nautique tells me if you are over turning a 540 the 430 should be an awesome prop for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Tim, I relieved the hull area for more prop clearance similar to what you did.   

Can't be like what I did since I have a vee hull and you have a flat bottom... are we talking MC Powerslot style? I'd like to see pics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Can't be like what I did since I have a vee hull and you have a flat bottom... are we talking MC Powerslot style? I'd like to see pics.


Tim, Here are some pics of the hull. Kinda hard to shoot good pics.

This shows the area removed for clearance Roughly about 10" X 10"


Shows prop clearance with the Acme 422   12.5 X 15.5


Trim tabs in up position. Basically flush with the hull as they are inletted about .060


Have played very little with the tabs so far. I plan to make minute changes and see the effects.

You were correct: the 422 killed the performance. Both hole shot and top end. Brought RPM down to 5000 but speed to around 46mph.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:


Shows prop clearance with the Acme 422   12.5 X 15.5



A Menards ruler? Uh Oh here we go !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:


Shows prop clearance with the Acme 422   12.5 X 15.5


A Menards ruler? Uh Oh here we go !

WOW!! I completely missed that. I was focused on the divot Duane made in the hull.
Duane, Tell me more and why??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Duane, Tell me more and why??


Wanted clearance to turn a 13" prop. Engine combination that I came up with was way more than stock.   I like everything that the 540 (13" X 12" ) give except for the WOT RPM. Would like to tame that down some. Hole shot is awesome and the top speed is OK but I would like to turn the engine a little slower and maybe pickup a few MPH. May have to live with what I have.
Sorry about the yard stick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 10:55pm
Yikes, that divot might cause the hull to do some very strange things... proceed with a healthy amount of caution at higher speeds. I would have extended it to the transom to keep it from acting like a lot of hook. Unfortunate, as there are several good 12.5" props that wouldn't have needed clearancing. The work looks very nice, as usual, though.

I think your tach is lying... if you could really pull the 422 5k, the boat would have been running about 60. I suspect it was closer to 4k. Expect about a 300rpm difference for each inch of pitch... though when you prop it to turn so far from your peak power, the numbers can get skewed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 10:55pm
I like divot, might make things a bit funky under some conditions but it sure is beautifully done. For sure the 430 would be the prop for a hot performing boat with a 1:1 trans that can swing a 13 inch, or as tim mentioned above there is a 12 inch equiv... you lost me on the performance numbers for that 422 though. At 500o rpm on a 1:1 trans boat that thing would be moving mid fifties easy - 4000 rpm would get you closer to the 46mph you were seeing.   Check that tach out.   

Powering through the porposing as you get to the low 50s is pretty typical of one of these boats - drive mindfully at that point the faster you go the farther down the nose is pushed. If you lose feedback in the steering it is time to pull back on the throttle as your rudder can no longer be counted on to keep you moving forward. Avoid filling the front seat and be careful breaking when you do...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2017 at 10:56pm
Dammit Benjamin..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fanofccfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2017 at 12:13am
^😂😂😂😂
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-26-2017 at 11:50pm
Put another 3 hours on the tranny rebuild today at Patoka Lake in southern Indiana. Over 20 on the engine now.   Everything is running great on the boat. Next big chore will be to make a new trailer for it. Needs to be more user friendly.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-27-2017 at 12:10am
Beautiful Duane
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+1 on what Gary said, Looks amazing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-27-2017 at 6:51am
Looking fantastic Duane!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NCH20SKIER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-27-2017 at 9:06am
Zoom zoom. Looks fast just sitting there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smithfamily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-27-2017 at 9:08am
Sure looks pretty!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67nautique312 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-31-2017 at 9:52am
Man that thing is NICE!
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