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Tired Interceptor - Block Cracks Everywhere!

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    Posted: April-28-2015 at 7:29pm
Hi All! Pete if your viewing put on your engineer hat my engineer father isn't available for comment

I received my 170 cu. in inline 6 Interceptor back from the machine shop late this afternoon with slightly hair raising news. For those of you who didn't follow the posting I had on general questions regarding drive i.d. I had my block out to be hot tanked. I was aware of one crack in the outer water jacket. I didn't get to bummed about that I was more worried the crank wouldn't polish out.     

Anyhow, my worst or most worst fears have now been realized. I got 3 more cracks to contend with! see pics below.

So, I am mulling several options. (1.) continue to repair the block - lock and stitch or weld (2.) get maybe a 200 cu. in inline 6 and swap my maranization kit ( all aluminum interceptor parts) and drive - if possible. (3.) re-power completely.

So my question is this. Anyone on the forum know anyone who has gone to the lock and stitch repair method? If so, to what degree. I have seen repaired industrial items a couple of times over the years repaired using that technique, unfortunately I don't know anyone who has had it done. I was curious about the longevity of the repairs. The machinist who checked the block for me told me that it's a really common method on heavy trucks. My reply those blocks are much more robust - so I kind of am curious.

I do have access to a facility that will weld it - sand mound and bake oven. Im concerned my costs to save this engine are going to override the value of it. My order of restorations is way out of wack now I wanted to be glassing by now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 7:42pm
Christopher,
I feel there are just too many cracks to try to fix. Did the machine shop have any comments?

I sure like the idea of finding a 200 but, did they get the 200 from boring or stroking? I'm not that familiar with the engine. The 200 sure is better than a repower!

Dog bone stitching is a excellent method of crack repair but, in my opinion not for something that goes through heat cycles.

Just a suggestion, but keep your posts in the same thread so we can follow better.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 8:01pm
That is crazy, I had never heard of the lock and stitch repair method, very interesting.

I wonder how they hold up, especially in an application like the marine world where the engines are under pretty heavy load. I know welding cracked heads in the Outboard racing world is VERY common. Very different materials though, those blocks are all Aluminum. But load and use is probably even worse then what we put our engines through, some of those guys are turning those things over 10k revs and leaned way out often times literally 10 or 20 degrees farenheit away from a complete melt down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 8:03pm
Oh for those who also have not seen how this works, here is a video (long but if you skip through it you will get the idea).



BTW, I want one of those pneumatic tap tools!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 8:10pm
I'm not familiar with the 170 Interceptor. Is it a Ford block, same as in the Early Ford Broncos? I just threw a presumed good 170 block away. Cruise the Early Bronco forums, you should be able to find a block there for next to nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 9:15pm
I first saw it years ago when I was still working as a machinist / millwright. Saw some pretty extreme applications it was used for but have never known anyone in an auto or marine application. I'm kind of like Pete my curiously centered on how it handles heating / cooling cycles. And although I haven't had direct experience some of the information I've dug since acquired this boat referred to the inline interceptor as "hot head six" which suggests to me there's quite a swing during operation.

Saw a gearbox on an industrial screener all but split in half lock and stitched back together and run! Pretty abusive application huge internal counter weights, more stress than I thought a shoe box full of studs would close up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 9:22pm
Supposedly the block was used in comets , Falcons, and I think fairlanes and early rancheros. IDK about Broncos. I think possibly a mustang or two. Some of the info on the progression of the Ford sixes says basically the 144-200 cu. in. Are all the same just that the 170 got stroked and then the 200 got a bigger log intake etc. and was also further stroked then finally the 250 got crossflow and another 1.5" or so in block height to get to 250 cu. in.

So yes, I possibly a few options. Oh and the 200 up went to 7 main bearings from 4 so that peeks my interest. Don't mind worki'n just comes down to investment now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 9:32pm
Get ahold of 62wood, even though a Chevy guy Steve knows more about those 6's than he would like to admit !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Get ahold of 62wood, even though a Chevy guy Steve knows more about those 6's than he would like to admit !

Steve (62wood)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 10:14pm

The 200 is probably too tall for your motor box. This web site has quite a bit of info.
http://www.fordsix.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 10:38pm
That's classic inlines forum site, been through there. 200 cu. same block as 144 and 170. Same footprint. 250-300 would require dog house mods. Thanks for the interest going to walk a few scrap yards before I take action.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-28-2015 at 10:47pm
Thanks guys for your interest and input!

Restoration is not for the faint of heart!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-29-2015 at 12:10am
I seem to remember Steve saying 200 is as big as you can go and have the Interceptor parts fit,the other engines are different in some way. I remember back in the day my Dad had a '66 Mustang with a 200 6 with a chrome valve cover and decal on the air cleaner declaring "Sprint" all backed up with a 3 speed and what seemed like a 308 gear
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I think you're correct about that Gary. I haven't gone through it yet. But like any good auto repair / machine shop they have a junkyard! and my buddy told me they had a few 200's rolling around in it some where. He claimed he thought it was the same block ( just more main bearings) So I'm going to take a walk through and see what they look like personally my interceptor was the smallest ford inline I had seen everything else had a 300.

I'm going to check around. I did know where there was a donor 170 straight out of a comet and it ran. They were building the car up for the strip. Hopefully it didn't get recycled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 62 wood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-02-2015 at 1:28am
A Ford six banger? Why would anyone put money into one of those loosers?       

Actually, I had to learn more than I ever really wanted to know about the lowly six. My 64 has the Interceptor 100 (hp) for power (or lack there of.. )

When I bought my 64 , it ran ok, but never felt it was running to its potential, but hey it was a 6 banger(and a Ford ;) . The head appeared to have a couple of visible cracks. After doing some checking with the Hi-Po Ford six forum, I found out the head was a 73 dated head, probably off of a 200. Problem was, these heads have larger combustion chambers.

Also, the 170 originally had a steel shim head gasket. When the PO replaced the head , they installed a FelPro gasket, which is thicker than the original head gasket.... One of the guys estimated the engine was running somewhere in the 7 to 7.5 compression ratio.

Thanks to the help of a couple of guys from that forum, I installed a 200 head from a late 70's Monarch. This gives you larger / hardened valves and intake runner. (which was another issue I later ran into) I had the head milled (I think around .040) and installed all new valves and springs.

Thankfully, I was able to keep the original 170 block...


Now, onto what little I know about the 200 block. I bought an Intereptor FWF I/O six banger motor a few years ago from an estate. I was simply told the motor was from a Mustang. (car) When I tore the engine apart, I discovered the oil pan had been ground on next to the mounting flange. I think this motor had replaced a 170 and the reliefs were cut into the pan to clear the larger crank journal throw.   

I never got any farther into checking the compatibility of the 170 to 200 swap. But, since they share the same oil pan, you would also want to check on the mating of the tranny to the "front" of the 200. The Ford boys really couldnt help me much with this potential issue.

From what I remember, the 300 wont even begin to work.

ohhh, back to the larger intake runner of my 200 head. When I went to install the Carter YH carb, I had another unexpected surprise..... using the original Interceptor adapter elbow, the carb bowl hit the top of the intake runner. This led to making a custom stainless steel carb adapter.... (whch led to polishing the exhaust mani, chroming the original valve cover, etc., etc. )



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Steve thanks for the info. I recall previous posts with you when I initially came into possession of my project. I'm not a Ford guy either, and have surprisingly found a lot of info regarding "tweeking" these little animals, that said.

Over the past several days I have gotten over my anxiety. I have an extensive past as a tool / die maker/ welder / millwright. I tend to discount that once in a while. I left that particular vocation while I still had all my fingers intact. Have over the past several years as the economy permitted would make it back in a shop for some p/t work just lacking that now - all out of business or still very lean.

So, I'm not a stranger to welding cast iron and had a curve like anyone else unfortunately just not engine blocks - gearboxes, staunchons and the like that could be preheated easily and posted in sand.

At this point, as a friend of mine told me"it won't get worse" So I am going to attempt to weld it up. Like most, I have looked at engine blocks like an egg so to speak and tended to downplay the possibility of repairs for a myriad of reasons, thermal stresses, etc. etc. Anyhow, my multiple contact attempts with Lock and Stitch have not netted me any reply. So weighing out the pro's and cons - which I find if you solicit information you get a pretty clear split on which is best. Stitch, weld, epoxies uggh!

So i'm going to proceed with welding it. I dusted off some journals I kept years ago and I had actually forgotten how much I would record. Now i'm not a metallurgist, however in a past career (brief) I worked in the foundry of a large power transmission manufacturer (T.B. Woods) mixing and pouring Iron of all grades. And it doesn't qualify me to any great degree in identifying the particular composition of grey Iron, but I still recall conversations in the lab regarding all the hideously toxic items I was dumping and inhaling in cupolas just to get all the garbage scrap we melted overnight to spec.

I drilled and ground all the cracks. I of course had hot tanked the block so pretty clean for the most part. My tentative plan is the weld it cold, short, short stringers and lots of peening. Only preheating to a small degree to knock the chill off the block. So I plan to have a long day(s) in it. I'm pretty sure I can control the heat enough. and will be able to work simultaneously on at least the inner cracks. Going to get a good "dirty" iron rod for the base welds and will probably go to a nickel 55 or 77 rod for the subsequent courses. Im not going to have to machine anything in relation to these welds so going to stay with a little harder rod to keep strength in the body of the weld itself and hopefully get pretty close to thermal characteristics of the base. As memory and recalled frustration serves me it was always the weld that cracked again after, with nickel 99 always down the middle never at the margins. So trying to balance ductility and ease.

So welding in my ghetto shop, saving my money for another magnaflux. And to the proponents of space age technology please don't be dismayed I'm just not a supporter of epoxies on engine internals and not real keen on exterior either and I've bought my share of JB Weld over the years and agree it's a good product within reason and extremely useful in emergencies - that I do know.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-03-2015 at 12:47pm
Christopher,
I feel your choice for welding is good and certainly worth a try. Yes, it can't get any worse! Way back in my college welding class, I remember vividly one of the welding rod reps come in and weld a crack right in the cylinder wall. We took it over to the auto shop and bored it. You could hardly see the weld. That engine ran for two years and may still be running in a combine in Montana. I do suggest more preheat as well using a rod that's machinable if any of the weld area needs machining. Is that a attempt at brazing the crack or is it just the color of my monitor?

TB Woods! As a mechanical engineer I've used plenty of their power transmission components through the years!!


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Yepper, TB Woods. Quite possibly the worst job I ever had
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-03-2015 at 10:46pm
Oh hey Pete. No I had not attempted any crack repair. That was the only pic I had to throw up. I think it's just the combination of light paint marker and a little hot tank solution residue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-04-2015 at 11:15am
So, now my project takes another turn I had put it out there on craigs list I needed a block as my original known location of a 170 cu. in. was no longer an option. I am awaiting this guy to notify of his location and pics of an engine removed from an early comet he says runs and I get to struggle with more decisions. Last thing I need is another block that's shot

Anyhow, I diverted my attention to where I had early anticipated my most daunting of tasks fiberglass. I had observed work had been done to the stringers at some point, just not well and I thought after an initial cleaning up and exploratory surgery that I had disappointingly had some rot. Surprisingly, as I was removing glass they had applied that was not the case. Just dirt that had migrated between the partial / delaminated glass they had applied. They had not fully wrapped the side stringers. They did wrap the main stringers with what looks like a single layer of 17 oz. roving. Unfortunately, no chopped strand under and they did a very poor job of wetting out.

So it appears that if I get the crappy work cut away and ground down to clean glass I can retain what's there with a few modifications or re-do of some poorly planned mountings etc. Fillet and re-wrap the main stringers with a double wrap of 7802 and the side stringers etc. with a single wrap of 7802 and possibly some surfacing veil and she's ready to get on her back.

I don't know if I had stated this earlier. I have found during de-construction that the original gel of the top side was turquoise that had bee painted over with red imron.
If anyone has re-done one of the same color is you have any information what you used for gel color please let me know. I will most likely get premixed / colored gel coat. If I attempt to match it on my own I can pretty safely guarantee that it will result in the first turquoise camo pattern American skier out there

I know because of the level of crazing I'm taking the hull and topside down to glass. I have decided early to re-gel the hull, however, I may even awl grip the top side - weighing things out. Let me know your experiences with awl grip or the like - good or bad regardless of the color I have never used that type of product.

This sure is stressful for what was to be a diversion for me and my kids

Thanks again for everyone's interest. I don't often engage in forums because a lot of information is kind of sketchy, you guys are cool and have been very helpful and spot on!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-04-2015 at 11:49am
When trying to match my cream colored gel I cut a piece out of the deck behind the seat and sent it off. Was not cheap and did not match,ended up using it by tweeking it on my own and came out pretty good. As to paint,I painted my Shamrock last summer. In looking on what paint to use I had read that Awlgrip could not be sanded and buffed. Something on how the paint cures and the pigment rising to the surface. Not sure about that and since I didn't want to take a chance I used Imron which I had experience with before.
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On second thought,if you are redoing the entire deck then pick a gel as close as you can,it's only a match problem if you are repairing what you currently have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 62 wood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-04-2015 at 2:34pm
Yep,,, sounds familiar. I bought mine "just to use" for the summer... PO had put a "new" floor in. looked like he used ten pcs of scraps. And so began my journey.
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Thanks Gary, I'll commit that to my notes. Wow Steve after seeing that I don't feel so bad. You did a great job on your boat looking at the pics. Spent the morning stripping glass off stringers and I'm pretty encouraged and after looking at your boat what I thought had been stringer work may actually be the originals with some home improvement work.

They seem to be bedded really well and I see my project curve shortening in where I least expected it. Lots to do it may hit water late this summer after all.

Thanks guys for all your assistance!
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Christopher,

I just about didnt buy my AS because of the 6 banger. I would never give up my 73 SN, but I kind of have a soft spot for the old "bacerds" Ford.    

I lucked out and only had a couple of weak spots in the secondary stringers. They really only hold the floor, so I sistered new along side the old.

I was NEVER planning on "going all the way" with this old girl... but can honestly say I have never been sorry I did.   

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Hi All hope summer's treating you well. An update on my engine struggles. I had a very experienced friend take a crack at the block cracks. (sand mound etc.) an unfortunately it was beyond repair. We thought he had licked it only to find additional cracks when magnafluxed.

So, Pete I gave it a try. I began my search. When I originally broke down the engine there were no surplus comet engines (170 cu.in. ) to be had anywhere. then when least expected the sky dumped comets everywhere. So after carefully matching block stamps and casting numbers I was able to find an exact match, only 1 month off in production code. Had to drive to the end of the earth to get it so I think my 63 is going to stay pretty closely configured as possible to original.

I am now, after a summer of crazy heat and rain alternately working on grinding fiberglass inside. I believe from all appearences, amazingly the boat still has it's original stringers. However I am unsure of how heavily I am going to re-wrap them.

I unwrapped them (reluctantly) because they were wrapped in roving and not very well wetted, a lot of holes in the weave and I was concerned about delamination, which much of it had either pulled away or had just never been applied well. the stringers were tabbed in with CSM and wrapped over with the roving. Im putting the roving just guessing at maybe 16 oz. My plans are to (and have 1708 biaxial) fillet the stringers and wrap with 1708. I have a concern with weight though. Having not worked with 1708 before I was quite surprised when I had to wrestle the roll in after UPS dropped it off.

So if anyone has any information to relate on similar repairs let me know. I'm concerned I'm going to start layering in additional weight and would like to keep that under control as much as possible. (little boat). I'm getting close to laying in glass and my original plans were to place a double layer of 1708 over the main stringers(motor) and wrap the outer with probably 2 oz. CSM since they were tabbed in only with what looks like maybe 1.5 or 2 oz. CSM.

So if anyone knows I would be curious to know what you did and if you have any idea what the layup schedule was back in the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-03-2015 at 8:40pm
Christopher,
Great to hear you found a block..
With the layup, if you haven't already,take a look at the FAQ thread in the maintenance section. There's some links to stringer job that reference the layup. However, it sounds like you already have a plan and it sounds good. There really isn't a set layup.

Are we going to see some pictures of the stringer work????


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-03-2015 at 11:14pm
Thanks Pete I'll give it a look over. Sorry about the pics - I'm on duty right now and don't have access to any. I'll try and post some in the near future. Fortunately the boat is pretty sound I haven't found any major stress cracks. However did find an area where they tried to use a repair kit in the transom area. Didn't find anything upon pulling it off like a bad band aid. They apparently were using the aft lifting eye for their ski rope point instead of the pylon?? So I removed the laminate ply and ground down everything well and couldn't find a reason for the attempt to repair. I did note that they had packed around the rudder plate with what I would liken to black electrical insulating putty.

Now under that I did see some stress. I was kind of surprised there wasn't a noted build up or additional lamination of fiberglass or plywood laminated in for strength. Some of the bolts on the outside of the hull were crushing the glass. So I have enough on rudder shaft I may build that area a little and most likely will laminate in some ply under the plate to give it a little more strength.

Just trying to do a thorough job without getting to far away from original or creating any hard spots that later will mess up my efforts. We plan on making it a daily driver when we get it to water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glassdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-12-2016 at 2:29am
Hi guys! I thought I would post a long overdue update on the progress of my 1963 American skier. So after, my engine probelms became a critical issue I turned my attention to the hull. Ill post some pics when I find what media card they are on. Anyhow, while I was searching for a solution to the engine I elected to step away from it for a while and get into the hull.

So sporadically over the summer I opened up the stringers for inspection, happily they weren't compromised. I did find a crack in the transom noted in earlier posts. I laminated a new transome from plywood and a new bow cross as well. Re-glassed everything with a mountain of 1708 and repaired a bunch of holes on the top side and stress cracks. I covered the whole topside with a vail of 3/4 oz. mat ust to make sure I had stabilized everything and used around 20 some gallons of resin.

So hopefully I'm not premature with my winter's progress. I had found a 170 cu. in. inline 6 (running, not well) that matched all castings and codes and actually came off the line 2 months after my interceptor had been manufactured. I let the engine sit for awhile and finally got the courage to tear into it.

I didn't ask the guy enough questions. Happily when I disassembled it I found that everything was identical, flat tappet solid lifter cam. It had been bored .030 over and was
literally new inside, no gunk. Only problems I noted was (1) slightly bent pushrod and #'s 5 and 6 connecting rod bearings had alot of wear and were begining to score the crank.

So, off it went down the street to a performance engine builder (Kriner's Racing Engines if any of you guys follow short track racing) and they were able to polish my crank and I escaped grinding. I think the guy did a reasonable job trying to rebuild it he just wasn't thorough enough. Oil passages were completely blinded with sludge and the mentioned journals and block. So I think he tried to get it done or whoever hot tanked it (if done) didn't clean the passages out. and when he re assembled it he didn't loosen the rocker arms during disassembly, he just wound up tight on a push rod. My guess is he knew he had a problem and got tired of it and decided to put a 289 in it he had.

After a good cleaning up, I cleaned all passages, checked the deck and cleaned up all mating surfaces and gave the cylinders a good honing. It appeared the rings had barely set. Waiting now on the block to be returned hopefully without any other problems identified. And I can get pics on to everyone and have it built back to a long block witha pretty coat of alpine green on it. I do have several hurdles yet with it which I hope 62 wood or Mr. Brainard could enlighten me on and Ill post those questions over the next day or two I've gotten too long with this post.

Any input or questions from the community would be greatly appreciated!
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Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-12-2016 at 5:29am
Christopher,
Great progress. These projects do take time. It's great you found the engine so you don't have to deal with the cracked block. A good repair will work but it's always on your mind if it will open up again. Now you have a chunk of cast iron that works great for a mooring anchor!! The early hulls seem to have less or even no problems with rot. It seems that less glass over the wood is better. The bad is the stress cracking with the early glass but the vail is the answer. It will be great when you get a chance to see some pictures so keep them coming. You get my approval with everything you've been doing!


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