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you don't see one of these for sale often.

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    Posted: November-25-2014 at 7:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

Holman Moody rebuilt by Lee Holman

It's not stated but chances are very high that both are LH.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 8:14pm
And that other auction on eBay is asking 3k each for non rebuilt with no exhausts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 8:59pm
arent these holman moody's kind of an old fashioned dated motor? it looks like they are in the 270 hp range? it seems to me with the ability these days to take a 302 and mask it as a vintage motor yet get into the 340 hp is no stretch these days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 9:04pm
They are for restorations, not to go fast. It's kinda like looking for a Scripps, Kermath, Chris Craft or other classic engine for your restoration. If you want to go fast follow Tim or Joe's blueprint and you will have your first beer down at the Duck Blind by the time the H/M boat gets there. A new Mustang Shelby has 662hp from 302CI, but you don't see people replacing their 68 Shelby motor with one for more power.

Edit:
My reply sounds a bit snarky now that I read it but I didn't intend it to be. I have a bad habit of angering some people with my opinions and comments. This Thanksgiving I am thankful that those I offended as a guest here put up with my nonsense and continue to offer help and advice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 9:25pm
you dont think there is a whole generation of enthusiasts hiding lots of h.p in old classics? why would anyone spend 5k or more to put an original one in whenin fact its not "the" original motor. You can doctor up and hide another 100 h.p in an older motor without your avg person seeing what you did. and yes i do think there is a whole movement towards resto mod boats and cars .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 9:42pm
Q. Why would anyone spend 5k or more to put an original one in whenin fact its not "the" original motor.

A. Because it makes that person happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by peter1234 peter1234 wrote:

arent these holman moody's kind of an old fashioned dated motor? it looks like they are in the 270 hp range? it seems to me with the ability these days to take a 302 and mask it as a vintage motor yet get into the 340 hp is no stretch these days.

Peter,
You can only mask so much HP and 100 would be pushing it. Beyond that the modifications are obvious and would not be suited for a restoration.

The HM's may not be "the" original but certainly worth something to a restorer who doesn't have an engine. A engine that was available from the factory but not the actual original is only a 1 point deduction if judged.

I sure wouldn't want to mod my 1927 for my 1915 launch!





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

If you want to go fast follow Tim or Joe's blueprint and you will have your first beer down at the Duck Blind by the time the H/M boat gets there.

This certainly is an option for the ones who want to go fast. However, I do have a word of caution that sometimes the hulls don't like the big HP's!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 9:51pm
Wait, what? A 1915 launch? Where was I? I could climb in the bilge and lick that thing. Do you have any more photos you would be willing to share?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 9:54pm
Pete, I'm thinking a Mustang 16 is one of those hulls, Am I on track?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 10:01pm
Good points Pete but--- Those Holman Moody parts will bolt up to any small block Ford, even Joe's rocket. However just try finding those parts without the block and you'll be looking a long time. Usually you'd be looking a long time for complete engines too,its just crazy that there are 4 available right now. Are they any better than say PCM conversions? well no they are actually crude in some respects but they have alot of history behind them and you don't run into them every day. Johns parted out Mustang SS and mine are the only 2 HM powered Mustang SS's to ever turn up here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

Wait, what? A 1915 launch? Where was I? I could climb in the bilge and lick that thing. Do you have any more photos you would be willing to share?

John,
The launch is a retirement project and at this point just an old stripped down hull. There are some pictures of me flipping the hull I believe in the "show me your garage" thread. I do have some in my photobucket account and will post them later but now I have a meeting to go to. In the meantime, here's the thread on the Flexifour rebuild. You must have come on board after the thread?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

Pete, I'm thinking a Mustang 16 is one of those hulls, Am I on track?

No, same hull but different model!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

If you want to go fast follow Tim or Joe's blueprint and you will have your first beer down at the Duck Blind by the time the H/M boat gets there.

This certainly is an option for the ones who want to go fast. However, I do have a word of caution that sometimes the hulls don't like the big HP's!
.. ha good one .. clever.   are you saying above it is not easy to hide 100 h.p in a small block ford or chev?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 10:37pm
I don't know about better Gary, but they are different. With the aluminum manifolds, bell housing, no circulation pump, and a Jabsco instead of a big iron raw water pump they are somewhat lighter I would think. Weight reduction was a hallmark of Holman Moody in their cars. The downside imo is that the lighter manifolds were not very durable evidenced by their scarcity. Just speculation, but weren't the aluminum Interceptor manifolds more durable? I looked at a couple of Mustangs with them before I made my selection.
Im thinking it's good to be Gary and have the only H/M SS Mustang known to exist at this time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 10:56pm
Hey Peter, it's easy to do in an automotive SBF or SBC, but seems a bit more difficult in a RR application. It was easy to do recently in a 58 283,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2014 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by peter1234 peter1234 wrote:

are you saying above it is not easy to hide 100 h.p in a small block ford or chev?

The "hiding" is restricted to internals so that means compression, stroking and a aggressive cam. Is a 45% HP gain is possible?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 12:03am
Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

The downside imo is that the lighter manifolds were not very durable evidenced by their scarcity. Just speculation, but weren't the aluminum Interceptor manifolds more durable?

Maybe but not by much. Any loss of water and the aluminum will burn through in very little time. I know some with the Interceptors have slipped stainless sleeves inside the exhaust cavities. With straight manifolds with end caps it's easy but you can't do it with the HM's without lots of work.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 1:14am
I'm with Pete on this. Within those judging parameters I don't think there is much left in the old 302 Fords. The H/M is 10.5:1 now and I wouldn't consider going higher than that. Judging by the idle I would think the overlap is approaching the maximum for wet manifolds, and RR roller cam blanks are not available. The heads, being old, are inefficient compared to even a 80s-90s Ford Explorer (GT40P), which is not exactly a performance car. The 347 stroker has a severe rod ratio, not what I would want in an engine that runs at high power settings for extended periods. I don't think the 331 stroker kit with a new grind and higher ratio rockers will give you 100HP
( take it from 235 to 335HP ), I read about a pair of AFR heads that added around 100HP to a 302 without any additional modifications but it would be hard to miss that mod.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 1:41am
Agreed but the hull is the limiting factor anyway. Joe's is the responce to both those problems IMHO. Bored and stroke a 351,cast iron RHS heads if you are worried about aluminium,use a left turning roller cam and reverse everything in the trans.Or just go Tim's route for rougher water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 2:23am
You have found a good Mustang balance Gary. Just the right amount of bling and performance upgrades for my taste, staying true to CC, Ford, and H/M, it's original DNA. Joe and Tim chose hulls that seem to be more suited for the power. Even after all the help Tim and others gave me, I think I fell in Pete's camp and am going completely stock this year. I have to remind myself that I have this boat because my previous boat was overpowered and sold for that reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 8:28am
It's easy to add well beyond 100hp and appear stock... Of course the $/hp would be a bit higher than a build that wasn't concerned about original appearance. Reid has a sweet (original) looking 375hp 347 stroker dressed up as a HM in his 73 stang. Tall intake manifolds and aluminum heads are tricky to hide but there are options... Properly done, most people won't notice slight variations. I'm all keeping the original look but in reality, no one is judging correct crafts. A slightly taller intake or improved heads that are painted the original color (and maybe the aftermarket cast logos ground off) is a pretty reasonable compromise between originality and performance, IMHO.

Joe and I may have built our current fast rigs off or larger, more modern hulls, but don't be fooled into thinking that the reason for choosing the 2001 or BFN was based on "fun factor" or speed potential. I would argue the former on both and the latter on the 2001 for sure- we sort of lucked out on how the v-hull handles speed. Rather, they got built because they're highly functional ski boats (that just happen to be fast). The 2001 is a terrific all around boat and the bfn is a purpose built rough water and footing tractor. In reality, if you look at our overall collections, you'll find that the older, smaller boats (with dreams of big engines to go in them) outnumber the "practical" boats by quite a bit. They're just harder to get to the front of the line since they're more toy-like. In my mind, there's almost nothing better than a late 60's/early 70's 16' cc with a warmed up, original looking powerplant. I have 4-5 on the back burner currently. While I might hesitate to dismantle a perfectly good running boat or engine, if I had one apart, I'd throw a bit more hp at it without question. It's easy and cheap to go to the 1hp/ci level in most cases, and doing so does not diminish the look, sound or feel in any way- only amplifies the performance when the throttle is pushed further down. Building them stouter if the budget allows- stroker kits and roller cams- can be done right too, it just costs more $. Either way, I've never met anyone who wished thy had less hp!

I suspect that anyone who has ridden in or driven any of the warmed up 16' boats would agree wholeheartedly. Reid's baby blue or '73, Marshall's 340-powered '70, mars or uncle Todd's ski Tique's... All 54+ mph 16' boats worth drooling over.

John, don't get me wrong- these boats are still a lot of fun at stock hp and performance levels. The few running 16 footers I have now fit that description. Some people would never dream of modifying an old boat like this and that's just fine. I do suspect though, that these types of people 1)generally aren't all that interested in engines and horsepower and 2)they haven't ridden in one of the aforementioned hot rides to know what they're all about! You may fit into the latter category but not the former, so give it some thought. I just don't want to see you disappointed when I show up to a reunion in a few years with a 350+hp Chrysler powered mustang! ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 9:36am
...and just because you have the power doesn't mean you have to use it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 10:20am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

I just don't want to see you disappointed when I show up to a reunion in a few years with a 350+hp Chrysler powered mustang! ;)

I have a feeling John is going to stick with the HM.

John,
I mentioned I had a 70 Cuda with the HM. It was fast enough so in a Mustang the HM will be plenty. Put some better heads on it and go for it!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 10:30am
Thanks Tim, I know you're right. I had big plans but reality is setting in. I don't think I can get the boat and engine done and make Green Lake with it this year. Your help and advice may come in handy next winter with the spare core. It's begging for attention. I would be getting in over my head to try to complete the boat and the engine over the winter. We have several trips planned so I will lose at least 5 weeks of working time as it stands now, and the epic car project still isn't done. I need more inboard / Mustang experience and to know the family is comfortable with it before I do any engine upgrades. Thanks again for sharing your time and knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 10:56am
Don't forget Boatdoc's 331, I don't know what he's pushing for HP but we all know that little boat goes. yes it's dressed up a bit but you could easily make that motor look stock.

CR, Cam, intake, heads, stroker? How can that not easily get a 210hp motor to 300?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 11:03am
Who?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 12:29pm
John, I think that's a good plan- keep the list reasonable and get the boat in the water already! If you have a running engine, run it! Build the spare engine in parallel next year... But if you open it up and go through it, I'd highly recommend some upgrades. Even at 302ci you can approach 300hp and have a lot of fun. 331ci is certainly a consideration too, 320-330hp should be easily doable.

Pete, clearly I was not suggesting john switch from HM to Chrysler. That just happens to be what my stangs have for power. They can be built up to run every bit as well (or better?). The stock HM's go along just fine, as most stock engines with 200+ do, in a 1600lb boat. I'm not sure they have any significant advantage over the other powerplants with similar hp rating- I believe Reid will tell you that the fastest stock 1st gen mustang he's had was good for 48 and had the baby Mopar 273! Besides, john is starting with a 2bbl, so I'm not sure that a head upgrade alone would be advisable. Reid may be the only one who might know how the 2bbl HM cam specs out... But I'd be planning a H/C/I upgrade at a minimum or I probably ouldn't bother at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2014 at 2:50pm
Not that it will make a big difference but the engine in the 70 is the 235HP 4V. The sacrificed 69SS (my core) had the 210HP that had been converted to a 4V sometime early in its life. 2-Ply gave me a ride in his 16 Mustang 273 that I got running for him and I posted the video a while back. It seemed pretty fast, fast enough to get a notable porpoise out to it. I don't know about the boat applications but for automotive use the 273 had 235HP, the same as the H/M 4V motor. That 340 motor is the bomb and the photo of it in the diaries is one of the best. Speaking of bombs, I know a guy who races Fox bodies and he split his 347 block in half. My machinist says that's not uncommon. Since it's free to post, here is 2-ply's Mustang on our chain just after I got it running. BTW, I like 2-ply but the nickname is so funny I like to use it. I wish I had a cool nickname like that.

2-Ply's Mustang

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