1976 PCM 351 |
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Posted: October-27-2014 at 12:01pm |
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I have looked around this forum for some simple answers to my specific need, and cannot find the needle in the haystack. So, here it goes. I would like to eventually rebuild my 76 351. Wouldn't mind a few extra horses. Is porting the heads an option? Are GT40 heads the way to go? And, are there any rebuild "kits" available anywhere?
I understand that this is a major undertaking, with a reinstallation requiring lining up the block precisely and getting the flanges to the prop shaft to line up. I am mechanically inclined, but would need help understanding all of the "top dead center" stuff, what I should do, and what I shouldn't do. But at this point in time, I wouldn't mind chatting with someone that has gone through this before, and can give me a little insight/foresight. Thanks again for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it. ps. the engine probably has a good 4000 hours on it. It really doesn't burn oil, or leak anywhere, and actually purrs at 3600 RPM. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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A good cam,manifold change,gt40p heads and Tom Monrow's book how to rebuild small block Ford engines
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Welcome to CCF!
Why are you thinking re-build, especially if it is running well. How many hours are on it? Are you not happy with performance - which could be just tuning, timing, or prop sizing? You will quickly find out we all REALLY like pictures here, so put some up! |
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Thanks for the response. As noted in my post, it has about 4000 hours. I am considering a rebuild before I am dead in the water as the result of a breakdown, 20 miles from any help. Also, considering a rebuild to get some more hp. Thanks to Gary S for your suggestions. I thought that GT40 heads might do the trick. And thanks for the reference to Tom Monroe's book! You can see some of my pics under general discussion forum, I'm down just a tad under 1976 Ski Nautique (complete trailer renovation).
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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Tony, there is a lot of discussion about this on the site. If you find the search here won't get you where you want, try using Google and "correctcraftfan.com" along with the subject and sometimes that works better.
The intake, heads, and cam as Gary suggested is the simple way to add 50-60 HP to a 351. Not all that expensive, either. Engine removal and re-install are not hard at all, and shaft alignment takes some care but again isn't difficult. Take a look in the Common Questions section, there's a thread about GT-40 and GT-40p heads at the top. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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Someone should dig up the link to Alan's 351w rebuild thread... Should have all his answers and then some.
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5765 |
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351 rebuild |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Just read Alan’s thread again and had to chuckle a little, the knowledge that has been gained since then is amazing.
Reading what was then pretty much uncharted waters are now just run of the mill everyday conversation, tear downs and rebuilds. It’s great to see the people on this site not only learn but share all that has been learned with one another. We’ve come a long way!! |
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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And I do appreciate everyone's advise. I am on the fence as to whether or not rebuild the 351 as it is running nicely, even after 4000 hours. I understand that it had a valve job about 20 years ago, but that's about it. And really . . . is it really worth spending bookoo bucks to do an upgrade to gain 30-40hp? Different prop to match (another $600). The implications and considerations? Why would I really need a better hole-shot, when she performs just fine. I can easily get a 300# person up on slalom without problem. I am starting to lean towards a simple rebuild, if anything at all, unless there is overwhelming evidence otherwise. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13510 |
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There is no evidence. You either want to do it or not. Clearly it's currently meeting your needs. A rebuild and upgrades aren't free and since you're the one paying you have to make the decision, not us.
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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I was not trying to pawn off the responsibility of a decision to the group. What I am hoping for is all of your experiences and wisdom, so that I can then make an intelligible choice.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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You're making a few bad assumptions.
1. If doing a full rebuild (top and bottom end), adding better performing parts (heads, cam) does not cost much money... The cost to refurb your old parts or buying new factory low-perf parts is about the same as the cost for better performing ones. This makes the extra hp essentially free to a point. Building for significantly higher hp levels will drive cost up, but if you're living in the <1hp/ci realm, it shouldn't. 2. More hp in the range being considered will not drive a prop change. Way beyond the >1hp/ci might... Adding displacement (stroker) almost certainly will. 3. If performance is something you care about at all, you'll want to upgrade to a modern CNC prop regardless of whether you touch the engine or not. They don't cost $600 either, more like $350 (new). |
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74Wind
Grand Poobah Joined: August-02-2011 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 2101 |
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If it can easily get a 300 pounder up on one then clearly you don't need the few extra horses you speak of. Plus you say it runs fine. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
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1974 Southwind 18
1975 Century Mark II |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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Excellent answer by Tim! One thing I'd add - an engine with a ton of hours isn't necessarily a time bomb. If well maintained, and from your description of a smooth running engine that burns no oil I'm going to jump to the assumption its been well maintained, then there's no reason to assume it will fail. How many hours a summer are you putting on it? 100? Less? It may continue to run perfectly for many years.
So maybe the easiest decision is to just keep running it, put some money into a prop which will make a huge difference if you're still running an original style prop, and kick the decision down the road a bit. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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How do you know he doesn't have a few 340 pound friends? |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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74Wind
Grand Poobah Joined: August-02-2011 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 2101 |
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Agreed. I've got a 74 351 and a 75 360. Neither ever rebuilt, both run fine. Always defer to tr Benjamin and the other wizards but In my humble opinion don't let the hours or age drive your decision. Do it when it actually shows signs of needing it.
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1974 Southwind 18
1975 Century Mark II |
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74Wind
Grand Poobah Joined: August-02-2011 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 2101 |
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Well, if he indeed does then I would refrain from comment. Or suggest they contact the Falcons , they could use the help. |
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1974 Southwind 18
1975 Century Mark II |
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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So, it goes to show you how little I know about props. What I have read is that it is important to match up the prop with the engine, and some guidelines as to WOT, RPM and speed? Anyhow, I have attached a couple pics of my current prop. Maybe someone can ID it and know if I'm good, or could REALLY benefit from the above mentioned CNC prop. BTW, I do about 50-100 hours per summer.
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OldSchoolBlue84
Gold Member Joined: December-02-2012 Location: Valparaiso, IN Status: Offline Points: 814 |
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Looks to be an orginal 13x13 Federal Prop.
As for an upgrade in prop, I would definitely listen to them, they know their props . I would not believe it until I went to the cc reunions. I just upgraded to the 540, bought from delta for $360 with discount, but unfortunately will not be able to test it till next year Good luck |
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Kostas
1984 Ski Nautique 2001 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Tony, Sorry but you can't ID a prop by looking at it. Get the dia. and pitch off the hub end under the nut. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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You can't id size definitively from the picture but it's obviously a federal or MW. Even if it's the optimal size (13x13) it's performance is worlds behind that of an Acme.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3590 |
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I had a 1978, sold with over 1,500 hours. I thought that was a lot but you have 4,000. Wow.
I upgraded my heads in 1984, went with Ford 289 Hi Po heads that had larger valves and had extensive porting done. It did bump the compression but it ran fine on premium fuel, pinged on regular. The power bump was nice, seat of the pants says at least 30 HP and the torque was much better also. I turned a 13 x 14 prop and loved it. My 78 burned a valve at 1,000 hours. Probably too much timing but I was young then and we are all allowed a couple mistakes in life eh? If your oil pressure is good, exhaust is not smoking blue smoke. Run it and enjoy it. You must have taken great care of it over the years. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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A lesk down test would be in order. If all cylinders are holding pressure well & oil pressure is OK, then just run it as is.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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I'm sorry, would you be so kind as to elaborate as to what a "lesk down" test is? I would highly appreciate it. Thank you.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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It tests the ability for a cylinder to hold pressure, which indicates the health of the rings and that the valves are seating correctly. You pressurize the cylinder with compressed air with valves closed at TDC and see how quickly it leaks down, and whether it leaks by the rings or out a valve.
Chris, think it's necessary? If plenty of power, no oil consumption, and good oil pressure I wonder if he should just keep running it until a there's some indication of a problem. I suppose it would answer the question on overall engine health. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Wow . . . $360 for a ACME prop??? I just got a quote for $577 for a 13x12 from them. Interesting that they are suggesting a 13x12. Gave them all the data and they said that this is what they would recommend, better top end and hole shot. Any opinions that would counter ACME? And how would I get a "discount"? The price is pretty much what I expected and mentioned above, so if any of you who think a prop should only cost 300-400, pleeeeeeeze direct me to a better source?
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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The 540 is the right prop. Too much info has been shared previously to recount here... Try a search.
Delta propellor has great prices and we get another 5% off on top of that. Click the "links" at the top of the page for the code. When selling direct, acme sells at full retail to protect their dealer network. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Tony - David answered your question regarding leakdown well. Like he suggested, it isn't really needed since your engine is currently running good. It is a cheap & accurate diagnostic method if you ever need it. The manifold needed is outlined on the internet somewhere.
If you do rebuild the engine, please take some pictures of the wear points (pistons, cam, etc) as we would be interested in how it lived so long. BTW, what oil have you been using? |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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tonyosis
Groupie Joined: October-22-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Ever year changed with 20/50, along w/tranny oil, filter/water separator filter. Lifted the carb each winter, and so and so forth. VR1
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Here is how to make your own leak down tester and how to use one.
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