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    Posted: October-17-2014 at 3:32am
New poster, long time reader here. I just bought my first boat. It's a 77'CC FN. The hull is in great shape, but the engine needs a rebuild.It threw a rod this week. I have a 351 Windsor RH.

I've been asking around for a good local shop, but it seems like everyone wants me to use their closest friend's brother. I want to use a good shop, but it's hard to tell who to trust.

1. Can anyone recommend some good sources to buy a re-manufactured motor or ship for a rebuild?

I was quoted $2500 for a rebuild from a local shop here in San Diego, not including R&R. He quoted me 2.5 hours on the removal and 8-10 on the install. He's passing me a 6 month warranty from the machine shop, but that won't include R&R if they put in a bad motor.

2. Does this sound standard for this type of work?

There's a guy on CL, motorbuilder71. He' selling this engine for $1600 w/ 5 year warranty.

3.Anyone know this guy's work?

Other option is rebuild the engine with my buddy and his dad. His dad is my trusted auto mechanic. Expected cost is $800 for the machine shop plus new Marine parts $500ish? = $1300. Then I do the R&R myself.

4. Will an auto mechanic fully understand the differences of a RH rotation Marine engine from an auto engine?
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Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated!
Dan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 2:28pm
If you threw a rod, it's not likely that your motor block is going to be salvageable. It's hard to know which direction to go since we don't know much about you.   If it was me personally, I would do the rebuild myself, with help from the guys here on which parts you need.   a rebuild is not all that hard If you are mechanically inclined, and are willing to go slow and listen to those who actually know what they are doing, and don't mind investing in some tools.   I'm Not a fan of the closest friend's brother deal,   and With CL, you never know what you're going to get, so buyer beware...    To take a line from Tommy Boy,   "you can crap in a box, and stamp it guaranteed, but then all you a get is a guaranteed piece of crap"...   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 2:55pm
I would lean towards doing it myself unless I had time constraints or stuck in Florida where I don't have all my tools. A few weeks ago I thought I might have a problem and thought I would check these guy's out since they are close. I have heard good and bad about them,maybe you need to find someone like them in your area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigslisthooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2014 at 8:16pm
Thanks guys. I appreciate your input. I've opted to rebuild myself with some help. Sometimes, I look for faster ways, but I know I'll feel better when it's done for many reasons. I'm now researching all of the ins and outs of a reverse rotation. Interested to see the differences between the Standard and Reverse...

I'll get some pictures up and share once the project gets started.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2014 at 4:45am
There are some really good local rebuilders in most towns, or there are National Rebuilders like JASPER ENGINES or AER in Dallas. I know Jasper and AER put out a quality product but they do charge for it and they stand behind their work. If your engine did indeed break a connecting rod you won't have much salvage from your old block. Normally when I see a broken rod it has associated damage. The Crankshaft, Block, Pistons and sometimes the head and camshaft may be junk.
Or if you are very lucky most of these parts may be fine. Only a total tear down will show what is good and what is bad.
I do rebuild my engines at home but I have good machine shops I trust that do the machine work for me. If I have a problem I get to fix it.
If you have the shop assemble the engine you can have some warranty with your engine.
The parts and machine work is where the money is spent. Most shops will assemble the engine for $150 to $200. Sometimes it is worth it to have them do it. They do it every day, the odds of it running correctly are much better with someone that knows the ropes doing the assembly.
I was in a shop picking up parts one day, one customer came in and wanted to pick up his parts to go home and assemble his engine, a Dodge 318, at the same time another customer came in to pick up his rebuilt fully assembled 318 Dodge. The two bills for the same engine were within $100. of each other. One was done, painted and going out the door with warranty and the other still had many hours labor needed to get it to the same state. Ask questions and get feedback from local people that have used the shops, good shops have a following.
I mentioned I always build my own, I did not say that is the smartest thing to do but I enjoy doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2014 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I mentioned I always build my own, I did not say that is the smartest thing to do but I enjoy doing it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigslisthooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2014 at 7:18pm
Alright... It's been a productive week.

Monday- Pulled the boat, then the motor w/tranny, then we tore down the motor. Pictures of the breakdown can be found
Here

Turns out a valve seal blew and was shredded in the cylinder. There was also a piston ring seized up and causing havoc. The heads cannot be serviced anymore, so I'm on the prowl for some new heads and pistons. My machine shop says they have some coming in, so we will see.

This motor was rebuilt by the PO only around 110 hours ago, so it looks like overheating may have been the cause of this. I'm thinking the cooling system is the issue. The impeller looks dated and there were 2 badly kinked hoses in the cooling line. I bought a major rebuild kit for the G21 raw water pump which should be here tomorrow and I am replacing the hoses. Also, will throw in a new thermostat.

Is there anything else I should be looking for while I have this torn out? Obviously, I don't want to go through this again anytime soon.

Also, I've seen some posts about giving the valves more clearance. Can anyone explain if this is necessary? Any help is appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2014 at 7:24pm
Dan,
For the convenience of all, Here's a proper link to your phobucket

Originally posted by craigslisthooker craigslisthooker wrote:

Also, I've seen some posts about giving the valves more clearance. Can anyone explain if this is necessary? Any help is appreciated.


Regarding clearances, I do know piston to cylinder bores on a marine are greater but I have never heard of anything with valves.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2014 at 10:11pm
Interesting it has the 1.23 drive. I wonder how that does in the big ship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2014 at 11:58am
My brother and I are also restoring a CC 86/87 Fish Nautique. It was re-powered by a PCM dealer in the mid 1990's using the GT-40 / 1.23 PCM transmission combination. We are in the process of replacing both. Looks like the 1.23 held up for about 15(+)years in the big ship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2014 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Mountain Man Mountain Man wrote:

My brother and I are also restoring a CC 86/87 Fish Nautique.

How about some pictures? We love them!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigslisthooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2014 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Mountain Man Mountain Man wrote:

. We are in the process of replacing both. Looks like the 1.23 held up for about 15(+)years in the big ship.


What are your plans with your 1.23? Was it still working well? Although mine seems to be holding up pretty strong, I may be interested in taking it off your hands to keep as a spare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2014 at 2:01pm
The PCM-70 1.23:1 transmission was disassembled for rebuild when we purchased the boat. My understanding from the previous owner is that it had developed a "slow" rear seal leak. It has been cleaned and appears to be complete and I'm willing to sell it as is. Feel free to make an offer by private message. Since the FN will be used for offshore saltwater tournament fishing we bought a brand new replacement for reliability. The PCM-80A kit appeared to be the best deal which includes the transmission, damper plate, and cooler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-26-2014 at 10:07am
Originally posted by craigslisthooker craigslisthooker wrote:

Also, I've seen some posts about giving the valves more clearance. Can anyone explain if this is necessary? Any help is appreciated.


Any chance you can find a machinist who has marine building experience? There are several key differences between marine and auto. Remember that an auto runs at a constant and generally higher temp.

The 1.23 solves the RR thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-26-2014 at 10:20am
Piston to wall clearance, and piston ring end gaps need to typically be adjusted for marine use. Both are also dependent on the Pistons and rings you are running. What was being referred to as increased valve clearance, well you got me on that one as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-26-2014 at 10:43am
Dan,
About the valve clearance issue, was it stem clearance? Maybe you misunderstood? Fill us in.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigslisthooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-26-2014 at 5:57pm
I did misunderstand. He was referring to piston to wall clearance. Sorry! This is my first rebuild and I am learning a lot.

My machine shop said the pistons are salvageable, so it looks like I only need new heads. He just got some in and will be servicing them hopefully soon. The pistons are 30 over and I have not taken the block in to measure the bore to see if the previous rebuild had clearance to specs. From what I am reading on CCFan threads, it looks like I should definitely do this, right?

The specifications for piston to wall clearance and ring end gaps are set by the piston manufacturer, correct? I've been told by several people this machine shop is the best in the area (for auto). But, as long as he has these specs, I should be good I would assume. I have a back up machinist who is well versed in marine motors. If shop #1 can't get them back to me by Tuesday, I am going to head over to shop #2.

So, piston to wall clearance and ring end gaps need to be Marine standards. Is there anything else that I should be considering?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2014 at 11:38am
I vote shop 2. Also, maybe marine engine? . com has PCM service manuals. I read mine before turning many bolts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigslisthooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2014 at 3:43pm
I found the service manual on CCFan and read through the specs. The only ring end gap and piston to wall clearance specs I can find are from the piston manufacturers. This actually makes sense given their knowledge of how the material will expand with heat.

One thing I don't understand. When we removed the pistons, they were in the block as 1324 and 5768. The manual has it spec'd at 1234, 5678. I wonder if anyone has an explanation for this. Also, when we assemble the motor, should we put them back in the same way with the same bearings? My mechanic friend didn't understand why they were in there like that, so I want to make certain we are not missing something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2014 at 3:59pm
Not that it has anything to do with the rebuild, but is it possible your Fish is newer than you think? Might explain the 1.23.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2014 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by craigslisthooker craigslisthooker wrote:

I found the service manual on CCFan and read through the specs. The only ring end gap and piston to wall clearance specs I can find are from the piston manufacturers. This actually makes sense given their knowledge of how the material will expand with heat.

One thing I don't understand. When we removed the pistons, they were in the block as 1324 and 5768. The manual has it spec'd at 1234, 5678. I wonder if anyone has an explanation for this. Also, when we assemble the motor, should we put them back in the same way with the same bearings? My mechanic friend didn't understand why they were in there like that, so I want to make certain we are not missing something.


If you are not replacing the pistons, then you will not have much to say about piston to wall clearance. The pistons sizes are set and your piston bore sizes are also basically set and can only be opened up by whatever honing will be needed to clean up the walls. Your gap will certainly end up no less than what was there before.   If you dropped a seal into the cylinder I would expect you to have some damage to at least one piston and likely the effected cylinder as well??   The numbers were put there by a rebuilder, not likely the original manufacter. The numbers could have been put there when they removed them from the first incarnation and then when they actually pressed together piston and connecting rod assemblies they measured them and decided to put them in a different order for balance. Or they just put them in different spots upon reassembly. I have seen connecting rods out of engines that have had rebuilt engines installed have three or four different numbering schemes on them suggesting they were well seasoned rods indeed. If you do not want to resize rods, replace bearings, polish the crank or in otherways effect things that previously rubbed together then put everything back together with the mates you found them with, not with whatever previous yahoo numbered them with.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2014 at 4:05pm
1.23 came about in '89. Idk if the FN ever got the 1.23 even though '89 was it's last year. '88 and '89 got a different transom lay out so that would be a tell tale sign as to the year

You said before your 351 was reverse rotation. Can the 1.23 be flipped? I thought 1.23 was for the lefty's?
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The PCM-70 1.23:1 pump can be reversed for either standard or reverse rotation. The PCM-80 1.23:1 literature indicates that it is for standard rotation only.
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There is no chance he was running a reverse rotation engine with a 1.23:1 transmission -     Without regard for whether it is or is not possible it is just plain ol silly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigslisthooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-27-2014 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

There is no chance he was running a reverse rotation engine with a 1.23:1 transmission -     Without regard for whether it is or is not possible it is just plain ol silly


You are correct. When I first started the project, I thought it was RR, however, after having a better understanding of engine rotation, it appears that it is standard. I'm learning a lot here
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Any updates ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigslisthooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-12-2015 at 9:10pm
Hi- Sorry for the lack of updates on the project. Just got married and we're trying to close on a house, so it's been a little hectic here.

We finished the rebuild of the top end. I ended up getting newer heads because the old ones couldn't be serviced any longer. Put in new thermostat, gaskets, rebuilt the impeller, installed new water pump, buttoned it back together and splashed her.

Right when we started her up, there was a knocking sound coming from engine. It was pretty loud and unusual for a rebuild. I thought for certain there was something wrong with the new heads/valves. It was a very frustrating moment. I let it run for 15 minutes while racking my brain. I was at the point to pull the boat and motor again! Then, there was a solid "clink" like something seated properly and presto- she sounded like a new engine. Took it out for a sea trial and it ran strong. The next week, we opened her up WOT and everything was great.

This last week, we took her out for kelp bed fishing and I opened her up with a full load. She was running awesome, then Pop Pop! There was a backfire coming from the carb. So, now I'm thinking bad gas. I refueled and added some booster in the fuel and ran her again for while. Then I opened her up a little under load and Pop Pop! This is happening around 3300RPM under load.

I have not had a chance to look into this yet, but I'm thinking it's either timing or the fuel pump was dirty and pushed dirt into the carb. The fuel pump looked kind of new when I did the rebuild, but you never know what the PO had done or not done.

Any input is welcomed at this point. Otherwise, I will update when I have a solution or bigger problem. LOL.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-13-2015 at 5:43pm
I'd put a light on it and check your total advance. My guess on the pop would be timing way off, maybe you'll find the advance mechanism is stuck. Easy to clean it up and make sure everything is moving freely and try again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-13-2015 at 5:47pm
Ditto,
Also may have broke a valve spring.
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Don't have much experience setting timing but I hope you get it worked out and that is all it is. Being that you are in San Diego I can give you a little advice on who to use and not use for your inboard motor based on personal experience.

1. Would steer clear of Affordable Marine Service or AMS just south of downtown. They did some work on my boat when I first bought it and the did not know their way around an inboard motor. Also when I picked the boat up I lost the trailer tire a block away from a gash in the sidewall and after the fact realized that the trailer fender was dented.

2. If you need any work on your inboard transmission I would highly recommend Pacwest Marine and Industrial on Shelter Island. A few months after buying my boat I had the transmission go bad and they rebuilt it for a fair price. Knock on wood it is still going strong.

3. I would not under any circumstances use Pacific Coast Marine in Mission Valley. I had a complete motor rebuild performed their that lasted less than 40 hours. The machine shop work was subcontracted out to Wholesale Automotive Marine also in Mission Valley who I would not use as well at least for marine work. The reason for the second rebuild was a knock that developed due to the number six cyllinder binding up. This was caused by the clearancing of the cyllinders not being done correctly for a marine engine. Also when the work was done it had to be done twice because the first time they rebuilt the motor it was assembled as a regular rotation motor lol. Don't use them.

Good luck to you. The fish Nautiques look sweet!
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