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New guy, Newish Boat

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TRBenj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:25pm
Gary, if you can find a roller block for little $ over a flat tappet, sure. The tie bar lifters are a real nice solution (and work great on a flat tappet block) and are "only" ~$400 for a SBF. Joe and I are both running tie bar lifters on our rollers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

That guy that built his own EFI 351s for his Bayliner here used megasquirt. Apparently the PCM stuff is all locked up. You can't even see the programming let alone modify it. jbear and Orlando76 will take it from here.

??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Orlando76 Orlando76 wrote:

I know more about the female brain than I do computers

Try F12.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:29pm
Huh? I'm lost. There's a typo in there, I know as much about the female brain as I do computers, which is not much. There's no understanding their psych.

Oh I need beer :30.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

First off, I'd be very careful about changing too much on the induction side (heads, cam) on a gt40 as the ECM is not capable of making tune variation based on different (better performing) components. P heads are a proven deg upgrade over gt40 heads but i probably wouldn't push it much beyond that in terms of flow or cr improvements.


Eddie, is your 383 roller? I can't remember.


Good point Tim. Didn't even consider the whole ECM thing on an EFI engine.

Yes, I went with a complete roller valve train. Retrofit roller lifters and roller rockers. Is it worth the cost (about $1200 total on a non-roller block). Yes and no.
I don't have to be concerned about the oil I'm using having enough ZDDP but if that oil provides better lubricating properties over non-ZDDP oil, I find myself still using it so that's not really a benefit at this point.

When I first started the engine, there was fuel delivery issues i.e. dirt from the fuel pump that messed up my needle/seat flooding the engine. Then again, after installing a new fuel pump that was putting out too much pressure holding open the needle/seat, flooding the engine. These issues only allowed the engine to run a few minutes each time I got it started before it flooded itself out which didn't hurt the roller cam at all but would've probably wiped a flat tappet cam.

As for the performance, I'm sure it has to be better performance than the non-roller setup but I really can't say what that difference really netted.

You also have to consider the other "gotcha's" when upgrading to a roller setup that might be overlooked. Stock valve covers are no longer usable. The roller rockers required new locking stem nuts which required taller valve covers. Granted, that's if you decide to go with roller rockers. I personally feel that a roller cam/lifters deserve roller rockers to complete the whole valve train package but that's just me.
Then different length pushrods, valve springs, spring keepers, possibly spring shims, etc. etc. etc.
In the case of my SBC, a new cam cover was needed for the roller cam thrust bearing. I have no idea if the SBF would require the same thing but I assume it would.
Again, all these things are not horribly expensive but the overall cost is effected and needs to be considered.

A block that is setup for a roller cam would be much less expensive than a non-roller retrofit type setup that I had, but I humbly feel your $400-$500 upgrade cost is still terribly underpriced if you consider all the potential "gotcha's". Not putting in roller rockers will definitely be a much cheaper overall cost.

Is the performance increase worth the cost in a non-roller cam...probably not when figuring what gives you the most bang for your buck...the stroker kit or the retrofit roller cam setup (which were both very close to the same cost each for me)????? Then again, was the overall engine package worth the investment?
With almost 200 hrs. since the rebuild I can honestly say ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY.

Still nothing like yours or Joe's rockets but it still puts a smile on my face every time I fire it up and even more when I holler "Hit It".
No regrets at all   
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



Eddie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:55pm
Well, now I have more info to digest. As far as trying to squeeze more performance out of the boat I'm not really after that. More looking at longevity and getting the thing running. I don't know for sure if the heads my machine shop has are gt40 or gt40p but either way they will work. Obviously the upgrade to a roller motor is now a consideration as well.

So rebuild questions:

ARP Head Bolts worth it or stock replacement fine?

The machine shop regrinds cams for "stock" rebuilds but I 100% percent don't want to do that. When I talked with him yesterday and agreed a new cam is best. I'm sure they can get me a new cam but where would you guys recommend I get one from? I would go back with stock spec cam.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 3:18pm
For Trey .. do you need a new cam?   Somewhere posted around these parts is a spec for the original gt40 cam, I am sure there is one on summit available for relatively cheap, I wouldn't change much there for the reasons stated previously.

Gary, for your shamrock I would get a 50,000 mile roller 351 out of a junkyard and run the whole longblock. Not the easiest thing to find but not the hardest either- 96 broncos or f250s on www.car-parts.com used to get it done for me. If I told them I was using them for the block and didn't want a warranty it used to be about 600 delivered for an engine but it depends greatly on the area. I have been buying fully machined and ready to go stroker prepped roller blocks for around 1k shipped - not cheap but good machine work and you don't have to root around the junk yard - but like tim said you would still need all the rockers and whatnot, a whole junkyard pull out comes with all that and you can just add the cam of your choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 3:46pm
Eddie, a few clarifications...

- The $400-500 I quoted was the cost of the tie bar roller lifters if a roller block couldn't be found easily. This is not to be confused with the total cost of upgrading to a roller cam.

- The only thing that roller cams/lifters and roller rockers have in common is the fact that both have "roller" in their name. 2 mutually exclusive upgrades that have nothing to do with one another... Other than the fact that they're both kinda spendy and make more power!

- A roller cam retrofit can absolutely be expensive. I'll add valve springs to the list as well. Valve covers aren't needed, that's a roller rocker issue (see point above). We spent about $2k all said and done on ours, we would have been closer to your $1200 mark if we had a lefty like yours.

- Excellent point in the break in... We had a few minor issues (fuel, cooling) getting our engine together both times we had it apart, just like you. Flat tappet got wiped, roller didn't. Not having to pull the engine out and cleaning metal bits out of the oil pan (again) were worth the upgrade cost alone!

- Performance improvement is very real... When we added the roller, we changed little else (just the exhaust manifolds iirc). We saw a reliable 3-4mph gain, which is enormous. Powerband is wider too. Cam specs are totally different of course, but that's one of the things a roller buys you- the steeper ramp rates buy a lot.


Joes points are spot on. None of this really applied to the OP for reasons stated previously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 4:23pm
Joe,

I'm guessing that I would need a cam just based on what the rest of this thing looks like. This poor boat and motor have seen some serious use and neglect. I just figured a fresh new cam was a good plan as opposed to a regrind. I will see if I can dig up the specs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 5:03pm
Tim,
Excellent point on the reverse rotation dollars vs. standard. Big difference there that I never thought of.

We're definitely on the same page with all your other points.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



Eddie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 6:32pm
Trey
I have a cam and lifters that came out of my '95 GT-40 at about the 475 hour mark if your interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TX Foilhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-17-2014 at 8:58pm
Roger built an almost exact copies of GT40's for his Bayliner, the only difference was the ignition was a little different and he didn't use the fuel control cell. I'm working on some Megasquirt stuff, but I don't know when I'll have time wrap it up, been having a good time playing in the neighbors new to him 216V this fall.

Lewy is working on a GT40 with a Megasquirt computer and there was a guy this summer on PN who had someone tune his rebuilt GT40 after he bored it too much for the factory computer to handle the changes. There are Mustang guys who can break into the PCM computer. From what I understand it is not hard to modify with some of the newer tuning software but Ford doesn't have it layed out in a easy to understand way so it's not something you want to try if your not really familiar with fuel injection tuning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-20-2014 at 3:15pm
So yesterday I unhooked all the fuel tank lines and moved it up to pull the factory ballast tanks. More than a few folks talked me into separate bags for the back. The fuel tank probably has 6-8 gallons in it that have presumably been in there for a few years. I will eventually need to suck it all out and replace but that lead me to a question. It's probably going to be a few months before I am ready to fill it back up.....

Should I leave the gas in it until I'm ready or go ahead and "drain" it? For some reason in my paranoid head I have this notion that the tank would dry out and get brittle when empty. But, I would like some imput on the matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-20-2014 at 3:45pm
Trey,
Drain it now. The tank is polyethylene and will not get brittle.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-20-2014 at 3:50pm
Great! Thank you... It will make it much easier for the time being to work in there without the tank present.

The tank will be stored in the warehouse at my office that probably won't get above 80* or less than 60* ever so I felt like it was a good environment.

I wish I could just leave the whole boat in there to work but we don't have a ramp just loading docks. Doors are even tall enough leave the tower up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leetudor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 12:00am
Put the trailer on a roll back wrecker then put in the warehouse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 12:19am
Haha, I like it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 1:58am
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

That guy that built his own EFI 351s for his Bayliner here used megasquirt. Apparently the PCM stuff is all locked up. You can't even see the programming let alone modify it. jbear and Orlando76 will take it from here.


I will defer to Mr Orlando...

john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 1:59am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by Orlando76 Orlando76 wrote:

I know more about the female brain than I do computers

Try F12.


F12 doesn't work for me neither...

john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 2:05am
Originally posted by backfoot100 backfoot100 wrote:

Then again, was the overall engine package worth the investment?
With almost 200 hrs. since the rebuild I can honestly say ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY.

Still nothing like yours or Joe's rockets but it still puts a smile on my face every time I fire it up and even more when I holler "Hit It".
No regrets at all


I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about here but..


I probably driven 100 of these 200 hours on this rebuild and I gotta agree....awesome.

john


sure wish I knew how to do multiple quotes like you smart guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 11:26am


Any ideas what would have mounted here?
The bimini Mounts are on the inside of the tower and it has clamp on swivel racks so i wondered what these are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 11:27am


Cleaning, cleaning, and more cleaning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Treybizttu Treybizttu wrote:



Any ideas what would have mounted here?


That looks like the same mounting connection for my High Fly board racks, the racks have square that goes over the square in the picture and you drop a pin through.

Could also be a boom mount (that was my first thought), but I thought all the tower boom mount connectors wrapped around the tower legs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 2:33pm
NOw that you have everything cleared out,   a pressure washer on the carpet and bilge work wonders...   a little degreaser goes a long way, just make sure to not squirt any electrical components, and rinse until the soap is gone.   my carpet looked worse than that, and came out clean as a whistle :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2014 at 2:51pm
I wouldn't have even thought to pressure wash the carpet honestly. The plan is to yank the bottom end, trans, and fuel tank on sunday after I get back from the lakehouse. It will be mostly empty from the driver seat back so I will do just that. I actually just made myself a note to snag the pressure washer before I head home sunday.

I need to take pictures of my garage one day when I get home so you guys can share in the disaster. Everything is OCD labeled and in boxes but there is pretty much an entire boat worth of parts and pieces taking up one whole side of our little two car garage. I'll snap one for historical sake before I bring the rest of the interior up to my office.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malibud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2014 at 9:59am
I just read through your project. I did the same thing last year about the only way I can afford a modern gt40 boat. I still have the internals from my old engine (replaced a cracked block engine with used) so if you need cam, crank, pistons, heads etc. Let me know. I had the machine shop disassemble so everything is clean. good luck looking forward to seeing your progress...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2014 at 12:03pm
Thanks! I should have the block out and to my machine shop early next week so I will know better what I'm going to need.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2014 at 12:49pm
Gave myself a gas bath last night... Bought a harbor freight hand pump and pumped about 12 stinking gallons out and into 3 of my 5 gallon tanks. I will spread it around to the cars in little bits mixed with almost full tanks of good gas. It didn't really look/smell as bad as I thought it would. I did manage to pop one of the stupid pump hoses off mid-stroke and cover myself in petrol. Took a shower and the wife said I still smelled like gas.

My buddy that is helping me with the motor got his hoist and stand from the race shop last night so it should be a bare bildge after I get home sunday.

Question about hoses:
The ballast hoses were exposed to the elements in places and have basically disintegrated. The Bilge hoses were a little more covered up and look to be okay.
- If I'm buying that hose in bulk should I just replace both the ballast and bilge hoses?
- I know I need to measure to verify but both the bilge and ballast hoses look like the same ID/OD... Is this what I need?
http://www.nautiqueparts.com/hoseballastpump-black-1-18inchinsidediameter-soldbythefoot-seecautiononnotes.aspx
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2014 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Treybizttu Treybizttu wrote:

I will spread it around to the cars in little bits mixed with almost full tanks of good gas.


I made this mistake and cost myself a fuel pump in the car... mine had flakes in it that plugged up the fuel filter in the car, back pressure took out the pump.   Make sure you strain the gas before you put it in, and be cautious about how bad the gas really is.    If you do use the old fuel, mix about a 1/4 tank of old gas at a time

Originally posted by Treybizttu Treybizttu wrote:

Took a shower and the wife said I still smelled like gas.


I like Borax (laundry aisle at the grocery store) or Boraxo hand soap for taking the smell out. Works great on grease, and odors, and in your laundry when you have oily clothes. My wife has a sensitive nose too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2014 at 4:55pm
I wouldn't worry about dumping the fuel in the auto. I would use a filter funnel to catch loose particles. I wouldn't bett life on it but it definitely helps. I use it every time I fill up.

Mrfunnel.com
Sorry to inconvenient everyone with improper link.

Also throw that hand pump away and buy a generic electric fuel pump (~$36) and hook it to the fuel line going to engine. Also hook an inline fuel filter to it so that's another line of defense.
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