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Is it the transmission or flexplate??

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davidg View Drop Down
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    Posted: July-21-2014 at 12:28am
I took a long ski run yesterday. Probably went for 15-20 minutes non-stop. 1976 Southwind perfectly. When I went to head back to the marina, I put the throttle down pretty good. Started off normally, then the engine revs went way high, and the boat stopped dead in the water. It would move in idle for a minute or so, then stopped completely. The engine still ran fine. Just no forward movement. So, I am thinking either the trans or the flex plate let go.

I would think if it was the trans it would have started slipping or acting up in other ways, and not just give out almost instantly. I am thinking the flex plate might have stripped out and I am sure it was the original one too. Any thoughts on what this sounds like? Its got to be one or the other!?!?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2014 at 1:44am
If the flex plate broke, it would make a loud bang. Sounds like the tranny pump isn't pumping anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2014 at 2:16am
Dave,
There's really only one way to tell and that's to pull the trans. I disagree with Chris in that if the flex plate went, you may not hear a bang.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2014 at 10:06am
Check the fluid Dave? Seems like a dumb question but when the BW gets low you're going nowhere fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2014 at 10:55am
Hey guys....thanks for the replies. I did immediately check the fluid. It was fine. Either way, the trans is going to have to come out to check both. While I am in there, I will put a new flex plate on anyway. If that's it, problem solved. If not, I will probably rebuild my own trans. I am in the middle of a Ford C6 rebuild right now, so I am getting pretty good (well, pretty acclimated anyway:) with transmissions. I can't imagine a BW would be more complex than a C6, which is actually pretty simple.

It just sucks it happened in the middle of the summer Oh well, this summer I have been busy rebuilding my truck engine, and transmission, so not much time to boat anyway. I will just add this to the project list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twalden@beacademic.c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2014 at 5:24pm
I have the same issue and I plan to pull the transmission and take it to a transmission shop, mine seems to be the front clutch pack and I have someone that can do it. One quick question, anyone have a good way to support the transmission when I remove the engine mount plates?

I dont know how heavy it is but was told to support it before I removed the mounts and I am not really sure what makes the most sense. The removal seems pretty straight forward, but any tips would be greatly appreciated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2014 at 5:44pm
Are you sure the prop shaft didn't break?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kapla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2014 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by twalden@beacademic.c twalden@beacademic.c wrote:

I have the same issue and I plan to pull the transmission and take it to a transmission shop, mine seems to be the front clutch pack and I have someone that can do it. One quick question, anyone have a good way to support the transmission when I remove the engine mount plates?

I dont know how heavy it is but was told to support it before I removed the mounts and I am not really sure what makes the most sense. The removal seems pretty straight forward, but any tips would be greatly appreciated!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2014 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by twalden@beacademic.c twalden@beacademic.c wrote:

I have the same issue and I plan to pull the transmission and take it to a transmission shop, mine seems to be the front clutch pack and I have someone that can do it. One quick question, anyone have a good way to support the transmission when I remove the engine mount plates?

I dont know how heavy it is but was told to support it before I removed the mounts and I am not really sure what makes the most sense. The removal seems pretty straight forward, but any tips would be greatly appreciated!


You can support the engine with bottle jacks under the rear of each exhaust manifold. Then you can remove the tranny.

Or you can rig up a support of some kind across the gunnels right above the rear of the engine and then support it with a chain or something similar. Just need to make sure the support is sturdy enough.

It weighs about 100#. It aint light.
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2014 at 9:21pm
Good news! I stopped by where my boat is at in Wisconsin to see if I could find the issue. Trans is fine. Flex plate is fine. Drive shaft is fine. Woodruff key: Gone! The woodruff key had somehow slipped out, and that is why the shaft wouldn't turn. Funny thing is that I couldn't find the key anywhere in the bilge. Not sure where it went, but, that was the problem.

It was Joe's comment about the broken shaft that got me to thinking maybe it was something more simple than the trans or flexplate.

Thanks for all the comments. Much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2014 at 9:31pm
Good news! Why am I never this lucky!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2014 at 10:02pm
David,
You have a problem with the fit between the shaft and coupling. Remember it's a a press/heat shrink fit.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2014 at 10:43pm
Pete;

I did not realize that these shafts/couples were a press fit. I brought the coupler home to file out the keyway. It got a little katywampus. I put it on an extra shaft I have here at home, and it will go on without heating, but, its is very tight. Do you think I should get a new coupler?

By the way, you would like the place I store my boat at. It is the place on Hwy 50 outside of Delavan that restores wood boats. They also have a collection of around 20+ Ford Model A's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2014 at 10:57pm
IMO, it's a waste of time to replace only the coupler (it has to be bored to fit the shaft & then mounted & faced).

I realize it is not my money, but the ARE shaft is the way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baitkiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2014 at 11:01pm
A cost effective approach (might) be to use a split coupling. You will still have to take the shaft to a prop shop to have it fit and faced. Let the shop order the coupling. By the time they are done it could be over $100 pretty easy. Even a new press fit coupling would have to be fit and faced.
Weigh this cost against an ARE and it may be negligible in the end.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2014 at 11:28pm
Thanks for the advice guys! I just got the keyway filed out, and put a new 1/4" key in it. Fits very tight, but, does not bind like it did. I tried mounting the coupler on the shaft I have here, and it wouldn't go on all the way. I think I will try mounting this coupling back on the shaft on the boat and see how it fits. Will take a torch up with me to heat it up to get it to fit over shaft easily and let it shrink down on it.

If this boat was more than the old '76 family truckster, I may consider an ARE shaft, but, I don't think the boat warrants that expense. Plus, I have only used it twice this summer. Now, if I had a nice Ski Nautique, or something more modern, I would probably go for something better. Just hard to justify the expense.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twalden@beacademic.c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-29-2014 at 6:08pm
We got the transmission out on Saturday, we actually used the boat lift to lift the engine up by securing the transmission to the dock, lowered the boat and the engine came up. We then supported the engine with wood blocks, released the tension and the transmission slid right off. Now off to the transmission shop for the rebuild.

I noticed some notes about the hot press of the shaft to the transmission, is this going to be an issue hen I hook it all back together? Is there an additional step other that securing the bolts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-29-2014 at 6:42pm
The hot press is between the shaft & coupler. The coupler just bolts to the tranny flange, no press fit required on that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2014 at 3:33pm
Dave, is the issue described above related to the major damage the boat sustained recently? If so, this would be a good example as to why a poor shaft/coupler fit shouldn't be ignored. Maybe re-tell the story here so it can serve as a Lessons Learned?

Sorry to hear about the boat either way, serious bummer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2014 at 3:59pm
Tim....Yes, they are one and the same. I will post my PSA below:).   

If you have an old, or worn coupler, do NOT ignore it like I did. Well, I wasn't exactly ignoring it. I was aware of the issue. However, I "thought" the press fit was good enough, and I was taking care to tighten the saftey bolts down tight. Unfortunately, not good enough.

I made a fast stop to turn around and pick up a skier. The water pressure during the fast stop basically pulled the shaft/prop out of the coupler and rammed it back into the rudder. The sudden force put too much torque on the strut, and it twisted out of the fiberglass the strut was bolted too. Caused a little leak in the bottom of the boat. My son's and I have a good story to tell for the ages now. Thank god no one was hurt, other than my pride. If I had it to do over, I would have purchased a new coupler, and put a saftey collar on the shaft too. This little oversight cost me my boat.

The damage looks something like this.....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2014 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by davidg davidg wrote:

If this boat was more than the old '76 family truckster, I may consider an ARE shaft, but, I don't think the boat warrants that expense. Plus, I have only used it twice this summer.   Just hard to justify the expense.

Originally posted by davidg davidg wrote:

Tim....Yes, they are one and the same. I will post my PSA below:).   

If you have an old, or worn coupler, do NOT ignore it like I did. Well, I wasn't exactly ignoring it. I was aware of the issue. However, I "thought" the press fit was good enough, and I was taking care to tighten the saftey bolts down tight. Unfortunately, not good enough.

I made a fast stop to turn around and pick up a skier. The water pressure during the fast stop basically pulled the shaft/prop out of the coupler and rammed it back into the rudder. The sudden force put too much torque on the strut, and it twisted out of the fiberglass the strut was bolted too. Caused a little leak in the bottom of the boat. My son's and I have a good story to tell for the ages now. Thank god no one was hurt, other than my pride. If I had it to do over, I would have purchased a new coupler, and put a saftey collar on the shaft too. This little oversight cost me my boat.


So that $350.00 ARE shaft is looking pretty cheap now in the long run.
Like you said "glad nobody got hurt." Too bad your not going to fix her but maybe you'll find a replacement soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TX Foilhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2014 at 4:39pm
How come 'fast stop' sounds more like I bumped it into reverse to put the brakes on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2014 at 7:22pm
Nope! Happened like I said it did. Quick stop....30 mph to neutral>>no force pushing prop/shaft forward>>drag of water pulled prop/shaft out of weak coupling.
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