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    Posted: March-25-2012 at 8:24pm
The secondary on the carb is not opening up for some reason? When I un-hook the throttle cable and open up throttle the secondary is not opening up? When running and when not running? The carb was re-built two years ago. What is the thing called that the secondarys are hooked up too, is it the secondary float?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACS81SN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2012 at 10:43pm
The secondaries are vacuum operated and won't open when the throttle lever is moved by hand. Some automotive applications use "mechanical" secondaries which open when the primaries are opened.

How do you know the secondaries aren't opening? A loss of top end speed could be an indicator but other things could cause this too. You might be able to see the lever move on the secondary shaft but looking down the carbuerator opening while operating full throttle is likely what most would do. You need to be carefull if doing this way. Since the secondaries are vacuum operated, the engine needs to be running at speed before a sufficient amount of vacuum signal is available at the diaphragm operator port. The secondary will probably start opening about 3500 rpm but will vary by hull type and engine condition.

What could keep the diaphragm from operating? A plugged vacuum port, mechanical interference, bad diaphragm operated. I've only ever seen one diaphragm operator bad in all the years I've worked on engines.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-26-2012 at 9:36am
Yes, 3500 but under load. To be clear, you will never see them open revving the engine in neutral, won;'t be able to pull enough cfm long enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-26-2012 at 10:54am
There's the paperclip check trick. In a boat though, you can also have someone drive and you can visually look at the secondary actuation. Check out this video, after minute 3 or so, you'll see the paperclip trick:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2012 at 8:40pm
Yesterday I had the wife go full throttle and we were only getting 37MPH GPS and only @ 3700 RPM !!   I then manually opened the secondaries and it was awesome.   We hit 43MPH and @ 4200RPM and was great. I just got done taking off the secondary and the rubber vacuum valve was good. When every thing was unhooked, the butterfly shaft opened nice and smooth. Whats the little BB in the secondary?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2012 at 9:53pm
I wonder if you have a vacuum leak somewhere.

I re-read this in regards to the BB. It somehow slows the opening of the secondaries, so they don't open up abruptly and cause a bog. Don't know too much else about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2012 at 10:48pm
Hey Brian,
The BB in the passageway for the vacuum is there so the signal to the diaphram that actuates the secondary throttle plate is controlled. Without that BB the secondaries would just flop wide open as soon as they started to open. Between that BB and the spring on the diaphram determines how fast and how soon the secondaries open up. You do not want to remove that BB.
Have the secondaries ever worked since the carb was rebuilt?
You can remove the whole secondary vacuum pot from the carb with three screws to test the seal of the diaphram in the vacuum pot body. There is a small cork gasket that is at the hole that the BB would lead to so you want to make sure that gasket is intact. Put a hand vacuum pump over the hole that the BB leads to and pump it up. As long as you have a good seal the pump should suck the actuator rod upward toward the body of the pot and it will stay there as long as you keep the seal between the vacuum pump and the vacuum pot body. If you don't have access to a vacuum pump, you can push up the actuator rod and put your finger over the hole by the BB and the actuator rod should not move back down. As long as either of these tests works, the diaphram seal in the vacuum pot is good. Then you can look at the path in the carb body to verify that it's clear.
It's possible that the diaphram is torn or ruptured which would not allow the actuator rod to open the secondary throttle plate.
At least it's a start to try and figure out where the problem is.
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-28-2012 at 1:30pm
Mr. Eddie,
       Great info, I did notice the little cork gasket and it really did'nt look like cork. I will stop by the autostore and pick up if its aviable. When I get home I will try the vacume test. Did you say unhook the plunger shaft from the butterfly shaft and plug the pin size hole in the carb throat and hold with finger and pull the plunger shaft down and their shall be no leak? Thanks for all the info and input guys
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-28-2012 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by 84SN2001 84SN2001 wrote:

... I will stop by the autostore and pick up if its aviable...

I'm guessing this part will only be available as part of a rebuild kit. Grab the list number off of your carb's choke horn.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-28-2012 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by 84SN2001 84SN2001 wrote:

Mr. Eddie,
       Great info, I did notice the little cork gasket and it really did'nt look like cork. I will stop by the autostore and pick up if its aviable. When I get home I will try the vacume test. Did you say unhook the plunger shaft from the butterfly shaft and plug the pin size hole in the carb throat and hold with finger and pull the plunger shaft down and their shall be no leak? Thanks for all the info and input guys


Yes, you would unhook the rod from the butterfly shaft. Then you actually remove the whole vacuum pot assembly from the carb. Normal position for the plunger rod is down. Gently pushing up on the rod and releasing it should let the rod return back to normal (the spring in the diapham would push it back down). Gently pushing up on the rod, plugging the vacuum hole and releasing the rod, it shouldn't move. This would indicate that the diaphram and the seal is good. If you do this and the rod returns back down to normal, the diaphram is torn or punctered or the seal has been compromised and needs to be replaced. As long as the diaphram is good and holds a vacuum, then you can look at the the little hole you mention in the carb throat and make sure that the path out to the vacuum pot isn't plugged in any way.

I wouldn't worry about replacing that little gasket that I mentioned as long as you don't damage it. I take just a tiny smear of plumbers grease and put it on the gasket before reassembly. Just make sure that you don't plug the hole on the inside with the grease. You can get that from the plumbing department of Lowes or Home Depot for a couple bucks. It looks and feels like vaseline but doesn't contain any petroleum products that degrade seals.

If you have access to a high pressure air hose and nozzle, you can actually test the opening of the secondaries with the carb completely assembled and sitting on your bench or even bolted to the engine. Remove the flame arrestor first so you can look down the throat of the carb. You have to know where the vacuum port opening is for the secondaries that you mentioned above. It's a small hole in the throat of the primaries that goes out to the BB and the vacuum diaphram pot. Manually open the primary throttle plate and hold it open (if the carb is sitting on your bench, you have to make sure that the throttle plate blades are not obstructed from opening!!!!!!). The secondaries can't open until the primaries are completely open. Blow high pressure air straight down the throat of the carb across that vacuum port. It may take a little moving around with the air nozzle to find the "sweet spot" but once you find it the air moving across that port will open the secondaries just like they would under normal operating conditions as long as everything is properly put together and the diaphram isn't torn.
BE WARNED HOWEVER, that doing this test with fuel in the primary fuel bowl will also duplicate air flow through the venturi's and fuel will be released into the throat of the carb just like it's supposed to until the fuel bowl is empty.
I did this as a final test after I installed my carb to verify that everything was properly assembled and functioning as it should.

Hope this helps you out. Let us know how it goes.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-28-2012 at 3:47pm
Brian, I was following your other thread too, where you ask about the propeller.

Just checking, you did confirm first that your choke plate is opening as it should when the boat warms up, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 11:12am
Brian,
    Thats the one thing that I did not check yesterday when out on the water. I checked the diaphram, cork washer, suction, and every thing checked out good but they still did not open. I did open them manually with the spark arrestor on and they stayed open until the throttle was decreased. So if the choke is not open all the way the secondary will not have enough vacume to open? If the choke does not open all the way would the electric choke that the two wires hook up too be bad for not allowing it to open all the way? Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 11:17am
Brian (84SN...)

Where do you boat in the Ft Bragg area, especially such that its convenient enough to get out on the water during the week as you indicated above? Just curious, I am (sort of but not exactly right now) in the Pinehurst area. My boat is in Seven Lakes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 11:21am
Yeah, that's my thing. Providing it's not ignition related, as the other guys suggested.

If the choke isn't open all the way, the primaries will never see enough air flow, to get a vacuum signal going to the secondaries.

I was thinking, that's why it might respond so dramatically to the secondaries being forced open, then they are behaving like your primaries. I came up with this theory, because you're having performance problems right off the line. Your secondaries could be welded shut, and you shoul (theoretically) still have no problem pulling up an adult slalom skier.

The only other thing I thought of is your floats in your primary bowl being set way too low. With this scenerio also, your engine would be starving (in this case for fuel not for air) until you forced open the secondaries manually, again making them behave like primaries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 11:39am
Well pulling me up as a Rookie Sloalom skier it felt like foreverrrrrrrr, then I got behind a brand new 200, got up fast no prob, BIG diff between 240HP and 409HP,-----well to be politcally correct its not HP that gets you up is the Torque.   Torque gets you there and HP keeps you there. I just found out that their is a hot rod chevy and carb guy in my hood, so im going to give him a call and see if he wants to take a look at it today on the water. Quick question---How would the timming have any thing to do with it if it runs good at idle, and full throttle with not skipping a beat. I also have HEI not that it matters. if its the bowls where is the adjustment for that? if its the choke not oppening all the way up   how do you fix that? thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 11:42am
The choke is ajusted when the engine is good and warm. The choke plate should be all the way open. If not loosen the 3 screws on the side of the choke spring cover.(Ronnd black plastic) There are little ajustment marks on the cover and one on the carb body, moving the cover a mark or two will make a difference. On the move the cover just enough to open the plate all the way. - With the engine is warmed up - NOT running.
You may haev to help the linkage at first by moving the choke plate with your fingers at first.

When the choke is closed (cold) it's not all the way closed there is a small air gap. That gap isn't as important. It's mesured with a drill "shank"   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 11:48am
Larry,
     I am in the carolina lakes neighborhood. I've got a house on ski lake. Its a 40 min drive to work, but it sure is nice once you get home!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 11:57am
So you are. Never occured to me to click on your avatar to find that out. Wasnt familiar with Carolina Lakes. I'll have to come check it out some time, looks nice and kind of a similar set up to what we have. You say on a ski lake...is there a course there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by 84SN2001 84SN2001 wrote:

Well pulling me up as a Rookie Sloalom skier it felt like foreverrrrrrrr, then I got behind a brand new 200, got up fast no prob, BIG diff between 240HP and 409HP,-----well to be politcally correct its not HP that gets you up is the Torque.

FYI, if you have a Chevy in that boat, then it is likely 260hp, not 240hp. The Ford 351w was 240hp. The Chevy was the "upgrade"... so the higher cost probably explains why its not as common. The Ford was a great motor.

Regardless, I'd like my chances in a 240hp 351w in a 2001 (or NWZ) hull coming out of the hole against a modern 196 or 200... assuming the earlier boat has a modern prop to level the playing field. Stock vs. stock, my '90 (240hp) would run dead even against dad's 196 (330hp) up to ~30mph. His 409hp 196 doesnt come out of the hole any better than the 330hp Excal... all the extra power is north of 3k RPM.

The 200 has a bigger, heavier, slower hull than the 196, so in theory should be slower out of the hole (it sure is slower up top), but they do prop it down quite a bit to compensate for that. I havent lined up against one of those to know for sure how it performs.

Its likely that your 260hp Chevy is a bit slower out of the hole than the same boat would be with a 240hp Ford, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 12:02pm
Yes their is, Thats why their is no excuse not to know how to slaolam espically when you have a course in your back yard. The father in law is jelious so is my old Boss
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 12:05pm
Larry,

When driving down I-95s the first town in NC is Roanoke Rapids. One "big" exit with Walmart, food ect.Our place on Lake Gaston is about 20mi from wally world. John Murphy (Jmurph) is right there too.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 12:08pm
Tim,
    All the guys on the lake say that its a big difference "200" out of the hole pulling them up between the 196 and the 200. I've posted another thread about "what prop to get on the general discusion" and I have made my decision on going with a acme 540 as soon as I can come up with $375   So your saying that the 2001 come out of the whole faster than the 196 or 200?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 12:08pm
I'll be in NC 4/6 - 4/9. Get those secondaries working and I'll be over for a pull. Well, just kidding. Maybe not. My time down there right now is very scarce so the little time I am there I am pretty committed to home and family. Hopefully before too long I'll be there on a more regular basis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by 84SN2001 84SN2001 wrote:

Tim,
    All the guys on the lake say that its a big difference "200" out of the hole pulling them up between the 196 and the 200. I've posted another thread about "what prop to get on the general discusion" and I have made my decision on going with a acme 540 as soon as I can come up with $375   So your saying that the 2001 come out of the whole faster than the 196 or 200?

They did prop it down significantly (14.25" vs. 15.5" pitch) on the Excal. Not quite as much on the 409 (15" vs. 15.5")... but a slightly improved holeshot on the 200 as compared to the 196 isnt out of the question. They certainly traded off a good amount of top end.

A 351w powered 2001 and an Acme 540 will not come out of the hole much slower than a 196, unless its a rare '02 with the GT40 (those are quick). The biggest disadvantage the pre-'89 2001 has is the lack of reduction transmission... that is a big help. The lighter weight, torquier Ford and modern prop will have a 2001 hanging strong under 30mph though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 12:16pm
Mr. Larry just let me know. Ol'Blue is always ready to go!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Waterdog Waterdog wrote:


When the choke is closed (cold) it's not all the way closed there is a small air gap. That gap isn't as important.   


Good advice on the choke adjustment and it could be very possible that is the issue with not getting enough airflow but I somewhat disagree that the cold closed gap isn't as important.
If the choke doesn't close as tight as it should, your cold starting will be horrible and trying to keep it running until it warms up can be quite a lesson in futility.

I actually set the choke to be about 1/16" open cold. Turn the ignition key ON but don't start it and the choke should open completely in a minute or less. If it doesn't open all the way, the bimetal spring is worn and needs to be replaced.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 4:17pm
Maybe I wasn't very clear. If the choke bi-metal spring is set so the choke is just all the way open when hot and the linkage is free. It's good for a long time til the next ajustment or rebuild.
That being the case when the engine is cold (I like the crack of dawn)
The choke is closed and the air gap is +/- .010 measured with a drill rod - good enough.

The choke bi-metal sping goes through 1000s of heat cycles. Years of use it gets weaker, thats why its ajustable.

I did look for the "closed choke air gap" but didn't find it .0625 is what backfoot said and I think its in the ball park.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2012 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Waterdog Waterdog wrote:


I did look for the "closed choke air gap" but didn't find it .0625 is what backfoot said and I think its in the ball park.


Even the Official Holley Performance videos on Youtube don't get overly scientific with that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2012 at 10:35am
can the secondary diaphram spring get weak over time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2012 at 10:38am
The spring closes it
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