351W exhaust manifolds |
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Posted: February-11-2012 at 6:52pm |
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F everything about these F-ing things!
I've been trying off and on for about 4 days to get the rusted bolts out of the exhaust manifolds. I've tried everything... heating, drilling, penetrating oil, grinding, vice grips, ez-outs... The problem is that 6 of the allen heads are rusted and so mangled up that the allen wrench won't grab. There are some great ez-outs from Sears but there isn't enough clearance for the walls of them. The grinder works great but there isn't enough room to do any of the bolts but the end ones... and those are fine. I either need a much smaller grinder, or something that can go on a rotozip or something like that. This is really driving me insane and I can't really do much more without getting these off! Any ideas? Thanks! |
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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The ones that came out did they come out easy? meaning not real tight? I wonder if you got some metric sized allen wrenches if that would work as long as the flats were not too rusted away.If that fails you might have to go the dremel route with the fiber cutoff wheels.When you replace them use stainless ones with anti seize.Either the PO didn't care or they are the original ones. Good luck
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80SN Barnfind
Senior Member Joined: December-13-2010 Location: Niagara River Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Jeff,
I went through the same frustration on my 80SN this past summer. I ended up using a 2" cut off wheel on a die grinder to cut the heads off the socket head capscrews. With the manifold removed, a visegrip easily turned the remaining "studs" out. This cutoff size fit perfectly in the irregular shape of the manifold pockets. Noel |
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Knowledge comes by taking things apart: analysis. But wisdom comes by putting things together.
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Noel - I just got back from Harbor Freight with a long shaft die grinder and 3 inch discs. I hope that will do the trick.
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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tnplicky
Senior Member Joined: December-22-2006 Location: C'trl Illinois Status: Offline Points: 333 |
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Please let us know of your progress. I may soon be undertaking the same thing, but I have been reluctant so far due to how badly rusted the bolts are. If you have any pictures of your progress, please post.
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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1) Could you use a 11/32 drill to drill the heads off the bolts ?
2) Or set a nut on the bolt head and mig weld it throu the center of the nut to the bolt? 3) Use 50/50 acetone & auto tranie fluid as a penetrant (for days) Take your time - GOOD LUCK |
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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I got the port side done. It was tough. I don't know what kind of shape my manifold is in yet (I couldn't help but nick it with the grinding). I have pics that I will post tomorrow.
The 3-inch discs were still too big. I'll take a pic to show that too. I ended up using grinding stones on a 1/4" shaft on the die grinder. There were some cone shaped stones and a flat short cylinder that worked well. I did try to drill with a 1/2" titanium bit, but it seemed to lose it's cut as it went into those hardened bolts. Those things are really tough. I had been using Freeze off penetrant for several weeks... not sure if it did any good or not. Once all bolt heads were ground down, I had to bang the manifold out with a hammer and a piece of 2x4. I now have 2 of the 6 bad studs out. The other 4 aren't budging with my vice grips yet. Here is the die grinder I bought. And here is the stone grinding set I bought. The cones worked well for some details and the flat pink one was very fast and good to get the right shape. |
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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I just came in the house from grinding and finally getting my GT40 exhaust manifold off in preparation for replacing both heads. I knew I'd have a problem with this one particular bolt (it is the second bolt from the rear (forward side of the last exhaust pipe) because it had rusted so much that it actually fuzed to the metal of the exhaust manifold. While all of the other bolts came out with surprising little resistance, just as I suspected, this one the allen bolt just stripped (I used liquid wrench on all for about four days beforehand. My 4"" circular grinder would get nowhere near it. So I ran down to Harbor freight and picked up a drimmel-like rotory tool with a number of grinding wheels. I did go through two rough (black) wheels very quickly, then moved to the white ones (I bought a set of 5 in addition to what was in the took kit). It took a combination of grinding and drilling to finally get it off. Much more time that I expected. However, it would have gone faster if I had a punch with a smaller diameter end; the one i have is blunt (used it to tap all of the bolts first) and it didn't give me a good center point to drill from so my hole was a little off center, so I had to be careful. Of course, I was lucky in that I only had one with the problem, and at one point I was able to start wiggling the manifold with no other bolts in it, and finally get it to slide off. You can grind them all down and get them off, but you need a small rotory tool and a bunch of grinding wheels. The last one I used was the cylindrical one since I was able to use the flat end of it on the bolt flashing/flanges that got created as I was grinding down the bolts. As I said, this head bolt had literally fuzed (almost looked welded) to the exhaust manifold, so it was not just a matter of drilling/grinding down the heads, but also the fused part as well. But everything looks good on the manifold now that i have it off. As waterdog said, TAKE YOUR TIME, get the rotory tool that will allow you to get to all of the bolts, and you will get them off.
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Okay, never mind my post. You posted while I was typing. Glad you got it off!
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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80SN Barnfind
Senior Member Joined: December-13-2010 Location: Niagara River Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Jeff,
I apologize, it was a 2" disk. Noel |
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Knowledge comes by taking things apart: analysis. But wisdom comes by putting things together.
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TheSpleen
Newbie Joined: February-23-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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I just got mine off a '91 - I know I haven't taken them off in the ~8 years I've had them and I'm guessing the previous owner never did, either.
I used an impact wrench and all but two came off no problem - these two were too rounded out on the inside, so the bit just spun inside. I tried drilling the heads off but had no luck - I'm guessing there's a way to do this but I wasn't able to. I ended up using a dremel with the fiber-reinforced discs to cut them off. This was a pain in the ass - they cut real slowly, its a bit of an awkward position, and the first cuts I made weren't in the perfect spot, so I kind of had to make some additional cuts, and also used a cold chisel to bust off the heads. I knew I was replacing the manifolds so I wasn't worried about damaging them. The nice thing is once you get the manifold off there's a lot of the remaining bolt sticking out. Once came off using vice grips but the other wouldn't budge. I heatedit up with a torch a couple times and hosed some pb blaster-type stuff around it, didn't seem to help. I took the dremel and cut two flat sides about 1/4 deep - still leaving plenty of bolt untouched so if this didn't work I could try other stuff. I put a wrench on the flats and was able to get it out that way. I think just take your time and try the least destructive stuff first. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Don't get caught in the PB Blaster marketing scam!
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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OK I got them both off. There were 6 heads to be ground on the starboard side and 1 on the port side. I still have to pull the studs out but that should be no problem. I was able to get 2 of them out on the starboard side but the other 4 are tough.
On to the pics: Here's what a "good" one looks like: Grinding away: When done, you'll see a nice ring letting you know that the whole bolt head is gone. Here's that one with the header removed: And the other side: Here's how the engine looks now: And here's the pile of rust that fell out of one header. This was with no banging or anything... just dumping it: |
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Good job! I didn't get anywhere as many sparks as you did :-)
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Well the Harbor Freight extractors I referred to in this thread didn't work.
I believe the Sears ones are tapered whereas the Harbor Freight ones were not. The taper would bite more the more you rotated. This style wouldn't bite at all and this style just stripped the threads off the bolt. Hopefully the Craftsman model will work better. |
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I recommend heating the remaining shank to cherry red. Grab it with vice grips & it will come right out. You may want to have a pc of sheet metal to avoid heating the head too much.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Still didn't get those 5 headless bolts out. I have removed the intake manifold and heads. It looks like a valve job is in my future.
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
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leave those bolts in there, its time for a nice set of remanufactured gt40p's...
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Of course, I'm still working on it, but assuming everything goes well, $510 including shipping from Clearwater for two remanufactured GT40P heads seems worth it compared to the hassle and cost of a valve job. But I had to replace one anyway due to the cracks in the water jacket, and since the "P" heads have a slightly smaller compression chamber, I figured I should replace both so they match.
By the way, I've got the head bolts off, but since I don't have a lift/block/tackle, Hulk Hogan, etc. to lift these things off, any suggestions on how to get them off? The weight is not an issue (51#), but getting them started off the head gasket is what is going to take a lot of leverage. Since there are alignment pins, the heads obviously have to come straight off (at the angle of the V). Can I lift up on one end (I'll bolt some sort of bracket into the bolts in the end of the head), but I don't know if some leverage on only one end will be okay or not. One other question (specific to a stock GT40): In the rear of the port head in one of the end bolts appears to be a knock sensor that I will need to remove and put on the new head. Anyone know what the size is? I have is 1" which is too small, and the next size I have is 30mm, which is too big.; I'd like to know what it is before I go buy a single wrench (or can I just use something like a pipe wrench on it)?. |
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Yeah I've been looking at the GT40p... I guess it makes sense. I didn't want to spend too much on this though. If I did the GT40p I'd have (want) to get a new intake manifold too. What else would I need/want? I'm completely stock right now.
Gordon - my heads came off very easily. I pried a screwdriver in one end and it was getting lose... did the same on the other end and I was able to pop it out. |
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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Jllogan
Platinum Member Joined: May-18-2011 Location: canton, OH Status: Offline Points: 1728 |
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I used a rubber mallet to coax mine off. I think the trifecta peformance upgrade is heads,cam, intake. Alot of threads on the site along those lines.
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Cool. Between the rubber mallet and a screw driver, I should be able to get them off this evening. Thanks guys!
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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74Wind
Grand Poobah Joined: August-02-2011 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 2101 |
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Pete might remember this from Nov., I've a 74 351 with crack in portside manifold (log-style), not bad, just a bit of drip-drip.
Gasket same side has also slipped some, part is visible on underside. Engine runs fine other than a little drip and a bit of noise. Was planning on removing manifold and having crack brazed (pressure testing first ideally) and replacing gasket. No idea if it/they have ever been off. I'll post photos tomorrow (there's some on my Nov. posts), maybe someone can guess how hard it might be. In the meantime gotta ask...I see in these photos engine is out and sparks a-flying...have new upholstery/carpet and no wish to explode...in all this talk of grinding and heating is engine in or out? |
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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I don't think exploding would be your problem, but it creates a good amount of dust. I'd cover everything close by (not with newspaper ) but maybe a tarp. Have compressed air and a shop vac close by.
It certainly would be easier with the engine out but you can do it in the boat. |
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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HatterBee
Gold Member Joined: April-29-2011 Location: Burgaw NC Status: Offline Points: 505 |
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74, I just removed mine from a '77 (log style) and it wasn't bad. To my knowledge they have never been removed and all bolts came put fairly easy. Allen
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74Wind
Grand Poobah Joined: August-02-2011 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 2101 |
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Thanks, one way to find out............
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone have an easy way to remove the yellow letters off of the sides of the exhaust manifolds? SKIDIM sells replacement ones, and since mine got a little "flamed" when we heated one of the sheared off bolts, I'm thinking that I'll repaint the manifolds and then put new stickers on them. But it doesn't seem like those stickers are going to come off very easy (put new ones over the old ones?).
Suggestions? |
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Maybe a heat gun and putty knife to scrape them off.
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levin
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Torch them and then wire brush. You'll want to wire brush the rest of the manifolds anyway.
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