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Not another Mustang restoration thread.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 6:30am
John, just a little suggestion

Since you say you have nothing but time, I think you should spend a few minutes

figuring out how to get some spacing between your pictures so they don't all run

together and then it would be a lot easier on your eyes and mine and a lot of other

peoples too. They would look like what's below in your quote that I spaced out.

If you hit the quote button on this post and hit the quote button on your post you can see the difference on the spacing of the words associated with each picture.

Maybe somebody else can explain it better, but it's easy to do. (just use the "enter" key

I have to go uncross my eyes now   

Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

I hope I'm not posting here too often. Working on our Mustang and following my groups on the interweb is a welcom distraction.
Tim, thanks for the advice on the contour. I may be taking this a bit further than necessary but since I have nothing but time, I have tried to get all the stringer dimensions within 1/16" of the original. It would have been nice to have a router as Pete suggested, but I'm not going out anywhere. I have lots of sandpaper, sanding blocks, and sanders, so I spent a good deal of the day getting it close and contouring the top hand sanding it. Here is where I'm at. If there are no more suggestions or comments I will move on to the port stringer tomorrow. I am checking in to assure this is acceptable work before I copy a starboard mistake on the port stringer. I like working with this stuff. Unlike wood, I make a mistake I can add material.
Thanx.













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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 7:24am
Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

It would have been nice to have a router as Pete suggested, but I'm not going out anywhere.


John,
You need larger radiuses that you are getting with just knocking the corners down with abrasive paper. I suggest getting a router. A DIY'r quality router is relatively inexpensive at about $ 90.00. The Depot is offering free delivery since I understand you wanting to stay at home. I'm sure Amazon would have some good deals as well. I would go for a 1/4" radius.

Stay put and you and Jan stay safe.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 7:35am
I concur with Pete, find a router and a carbide roundover bit, else curse yourself later.
You have good dust collection and lung protection, yes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 8:18am
Scalloped stringers on a 80-81 Ski Nautique shown below.

Originally posted by Watauga Watauga wrote:





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 11:51am
I am obviously not understanding something about the chamfered edges.
The radius on the edges is very close to 1/4". I included a photo of a contour gauge showing this. The top of the stringers are straight, unlike the photo of the Wood stringers Tim showed. The only area of exception is the inside edge under the aluminum angle where I left it square so the angle would have more area to distribute the weight. I planned on sealing the top of the Coosa with resin under the angle and foregoing any cloth, My limited experience working with this stuff shows that applying epoxy makes a monolythic structure. When glassing it in I planned to use cloth up the sides in layers with increasingly large overlap and not capping it with cloth under the angle. The only deviations from a flat top on the stringers are the two 6" cut outs on each to allow nuts to be installed on the bottom of the angle and the rear 12" of the stringer where a riser must be bonded to raise the fuel tank above the steering assembly. I will do this after I determine the elevation I need over the floor since I have cut the stringers down 1/2" to accomodate the floor. My photos are messed up. I am not good at posting them in the right aspect. They make the top of the stringer edges look more square than they are. The coutour gauge shows the actual contour..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 1:37pm


The edges in red are too sharp.

The ones in blue are mostly ok. The ones in yellow are pretty sharp too.

I would cover every exposed surface of the stringer with a healthy glass schedule and not rely on a little bit of resin to seal it up (it also lacks strength). Glassing all those corners in close proximity to each other is a big headache- the more you can soften all the edges- see the ones I posted as an example- the easier your life will be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 6:21pm
Thanks again Tim. I t's nice to know the proper procedure. That said, some decisions I made planning this design dictate how I must proceed. The 3/8 aluminum angle is 36" long and the distance between the mounting bolts is 30". That allows only 1" on either side of the 6" cut out areas to support the ends of the angle as planned. Increasing the radius on the curves will leave either very little contact area or none at all causing the angle to be cantilevered at the ends. I would like to avoid that. In addition I have shaped the stringers so the elevation is 1/8" lower than original to allow for any errors I have made (thanks for the tip about making them shorter since I can't shim down). Glassing the top of the stringer under the angle will result in a slightly different elevation. As far as strength, my amateur opinion is that the coosa is robust enough to handle far more load than I will be applying. Bonding the stringer to the hull with thickened epoxy (Cabosil? milled fibers?) and bonding cloth up the side with a cap in all areas except under the angle will hopefully be good enough, The 3/8" 2X3 angle should provide significant additional stiffness in that area as well. .I am not aware of any problems related to exposing Coosa to water, although I would prefer to have it sealed. That brings me to question if I should bond the angle to the stringer, or just through bolt it. I am leaning toward bonding it with thickened epoxy. That will not only seal it, but provide additional strength, taking some of the load off of the areas of through bolts. There may be a better product for this but I don't know of one. I have bonded aluminum to fiberglass before for a seating system I made for one of my previous boats and it worked well. I intend to use this design for the Mustang since the seating was improperly installed from the factory. The front mounting bolts missed the cross member and were held only by the pan and the foam. They had pulled out long ago. I plan on bonding a 1/4" aluminum plate to the bottom of the coosa floor where the seat bracket bolts are before assembly, and drilling and tapping holes to secure the seat brackets. It worked great before. It was easy and very secure.
It is very generous of you, and everyone who has commented, to share their time and knowledge. If the Mustang doesn't turn out as nicely as I would like it's not for lack of resources, it's because of my lack of skills,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 6:41pm
John I would think 3m 5200 would be better for bonding the aluminum to the Coosa because it would have some flex to it rather than the epoxy which could crack it's bond. It is after all used to bond fins and struts, rather than using epoxy on them. Lets see what others would think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

John I would think 3m 5200 would be better for bonding the aluminum to the Coosa because it would have some flex to it rather than the epoxy which could crack it's bond. It is after all used to bond fins and struts, rather than using epoxy on them. Lets see what others would think.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 6:50pm
Definitely don’t 5200 (sorry Gary) but I wouldn’t epoxy it (or bond it at all). That’s what the through bolts are for. The one thing worse than a permanent mounting of that angle is a flexible one. I would be aiming for solid and removable.

I would (and did) wrap the tops of those Coosa stringers with a layer of biax. It won’t be 1/8” thick and you’ll still end up short on height as you desire. I don’t think Coosa is prone to water absorption but the strength gained in wrapping alone would be beneficial.

The extra cost and strength of ordering new 48” long angle pieces would serve you well. That would allow you to size the scallops more generously. Glassing around big corners is hard enough but maybe that’s something everyone should experience for themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

. The one thing worse than a permanent mounting of that angle is a flexible one. I would be aiming for solid and removable.

Why? What's the problem with a permanent bond?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 8:05pm
5200 does not adhere well to aluminium. 3M recommends an expensive primer. I instead used self etch primer on my project & bet I have less than optimum bond.

A suggestion would be to wrap the side glass over the aluminium angle.   If it ever needs to be removed, a parting wheel would make quick work cutting thru the intersection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 12:31am
Another day, another decision.
I finished the main stringers. I now have a problem I anticipated but didn't arrive at a final solution. With the stringers cut down 1/2" for the floor, the monuting point for the steering cable clamp in the stern is dangerously close to the top of the stringer. The through bolt hole center in the stringer was originally 1.5" from the top of the stringer. It would now be 1.0" below the top. I would like a bit more meat to hold it I identified four choices.
1-Drill the mounting hole 1.5" below the stringer top resulting in moving the clamp 1/2" closer to the bottom of the hull. There is room to do this but it would result in a very slight misalignment. I don't think this is critical because the clamp is on a swivel as is the linkage at the bell crank. It would expose the cable to 1/2" more water in the bilge but I don't think this is an issue because our boats are always wet when my family drives them and the 1/2" isn't going to keep it dry.
2- Mount it with the hole centered 1" below the top of the stringer resulting in only about 11/16" of material between the top of the stringer and the through bolt. less than I would like, and less clearance between the swivel clamp and the bottom of the hatch portion of the pan. That could result in an adrenalin dump in the unlikely event it should it bind on the bottom of the hatch.
3_ Cut the pan short and bond a riser to the top of the stringer to increase the height. The pan hatch is crudely cut from the factory and extends 17" under the fiberglass rear seat so it would not be seen unless the rear seat was removed. I would prefer not to cut it. Just a guess but maybe it's this long to fit models that didn't have a rear seat
4- Move the mounting point of the swivel clamp rearward resulting in a smaller radius arc to the bell crank. I don't think that is ideal. The position of the clamp seems a bit arbitrary as the clamp can be applied anywhere on the 10" clamping surface of the cable. IMO it is in the ideal position now, as far forward as possible to allow now to allow the largest radius. The hatch fits between the inside of the blue tape and the position of the original hole is marked by a little white dot. The seat has formed a witness mark in the pan behind the engine cover wear mark.
All input is appreciated.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 6:36am
The concern I have and I may be completely wrong is that you show mounting it on the port stringer? Should be on the starboard side. Replacing the seal on the end of the aluminum tube might help as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 6:44am
John,
Is the bolt on the clamp block long enough for you to add more Coosa at the hole in the stringer? Making the stringer thicker at that point would strenghten the area.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 7:57am
Definitely overthinking this one. The location of that clamp block mount is non-critical, Cc was not consistent and they were often placed 6” off from where they should be (centered for equal steering travel). I would hold off on drilling that hole until everything was glassed and in the boat anyways. 1” from the top will be plenty strong. Moving it down a bit would be fine too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 8:04am
I think you should be concerned that Gary is concerned about which stringer your clamp block is mounted to

Luckily you take lots of pictures and post them.

The quote and picture below is from page 27 of this thread showing the mounting location (starboard, right)

You probably shouldn't read the words about the project getting infinitely easier though

Originally posted by john b john b wrote:

I bought some stuff from U S Composites years ago. Il price it there Thanks!
I did a little work today and got my stuff organized. When I cut the cap off astern of the engine I found that the major shrinkage was in the vertical dimension. The glass on the sides of the main stringers is not bonded to them, but it is not showing much of a gap either. I believe this was the right way to proceed. Next up, engine out and dig in. I read many comments and opinions proclaiming that there is no such thing as a boat this old with original stringers that have not turned to compost. Frankly I thought these were still serviceable but I began doubting myself even after removing the well seated lag bolts and examining the wood in the hole. I am happy to say that this project has gotten infinitely easier since I will not be doing a stringer job. There are two places where the rear cross member was where I can force a screwdriver about 1/8 into the wood if I push hard enough, but it is not enough to be concerned over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 8:04am
Tim,
Did you miss this?
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

. The one thing worse than a permanent mounting of that angle is a flexible one. I would be aiming for solid and removable.

Why? What's the problem with a permanent bond?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 9:00am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Definitely overthinking this one. Moving it down a bit would be fine too.



Listen to Tim.   Besides, it's a push pull force not a vertical lifting force. IF you can't sleep with it like it is then thru bolt a metal doubler pad on each side.
(I lost the piece with the ball on it that bolts thru and had to make one.)   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 9:06am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Tim,
Did you miss this?
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

. The one thing worse than a permanent mounting of that angle is a flexible one. I would be aiming for solid and removable.

Why? What's the problem with a permanent bond?


Pete, Read what Tim wrote in italics. "solid and removable"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:



Pete, Read what Tim wrote in italics. "solid and removable"


Duane,
Yes, I saw what Tim wrote but why does it need to be removable? Again, what's the problem with a permanent install? There are other components that CC glassed in.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 10:16am
There is no reason or benefit to bed the cradle down permanently. It can only create problems if it ever needs to be moved or adjusted in the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 10:32am
Can someone enlighten me,I'm not see anything here that resembles a cradle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Can someone enlighten me,I'm not see anything here that resembles a cradle


Thank you Gary!! I did not want to be the only dummy here. I don't understand how he will achieve the proper engine height either. Mine had to be inletted into the stringers several inches.   Engine cradles are a great addition.They tend to tie everything together. IMO

40 and 50 year old technology is not near what we have today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 11:34am
John,
Keeping in mind that anything is removable, I like the idea of using 5200 or 4200 to supplement the attaching of the angle to the coosa stringers. Even though the through bolts you are planning for attaching the angle are beyond what originally held the engine in, I suggest going with the "bedding". Many high stress attachments such as deck fittings are bedded to minimize the stress point each mechanical fastener creates.

BTW, if you ever decide that the angle needs moving, all it takes is some heat to break the bond of poly adhesive sealers like 4200 or 5200.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:


Thank you Gary!! I did not want to be the only dummy here. I don't understand how he will achieve the proper engine height

Duane,
John plans on using shims for elevation just like the original.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 11:52am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

[QUOTE=Duane,John plans on using shims for elevation just like the original.


Pete, That's why I could not see it. You know how I despise originality.   

edit,   I still like cradles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-27-2020 at 6:35pm
Gary, pretty sharp noticing I used the wrong stringer to show the steering cable position. I had that one clamped and didn't consider anyone would notice.

Pete, it would be possible to add material to reinforce the stringer at that point.

Tim, Thanks, I will not drill anything until the stringers are glassed in and the rudder is installed

Keno, Thanks, it's not getting easier, but at least something's now getting done.

Duane, Thanks for the advice and support. The stringer elevation at the mounting point is 1/8" below the original height because it's easy to shim up but not down.

I would have lag bolted it just like originally done IF I was using DF for stringers. Cossa doesn't retain bolts well so that is why I used the 3/8 angle to mount the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-28-2020 at 1:12am
I fear that posting my progress here, at this time, is insensitive. I am torn between the need for escape from our present reality, and our hope for the future, and there are good times ahead for the vast majority who will survive and write this into history, hopefully drawing on this experience.
I hope everyone here is safe, as I wish for the rest of the world. We are all truly lucky, whether it is for the incredible good fortune and excess of owning and enjoying a classic ski boat, or the incredible good fortune of owning a computer with internet access, a roof over our heads, enough food to eat, and a dream.
I will continue to work on my project as a distraction, I feel it's necessary for me to have a refuge, but I intend to temper my posts out of respect to those who are facing times far more difficult than mine, I am unsure if my posts are construed as an escape, or interpreted as a sign of opulence.
I have made several small donations within my budget to my local food bank to help those facing hunger in my area. I encourage anyone who can to donate to your favorite charity during this difficult time to do so.
Let us all pull together for life as we do for our hobby.
Love!
John Beeman
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Godspeed to you John!
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