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1969 Barracuda project

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BuffaloBFN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 2:55pm
Hey, any chick holding her own with this crowd!   LOL

And that was not directed to you...it was a feeble attempt at chain yanking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by sanity sanity wrote:

Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

It could easily be my memory, but maybe some have changed their opinion on foam? Maybe some of the older threads on this are worth a re-read?


LOL...if that is in reference to me - heck, I've already gone from painting the boat to keeping it original. :)

For a first boat project... I'm not doing so bad. and I'll keep everyone in suspense.


Actually, Im guessing that Greg's referring to me!

Greg, Im not sure I would say that Ive had a change of heart- but depending on the age of the comments, I may have had important first hand experience since that time. I now realize that there is a very big difference in the role of the foam between a newer boat (like my '90) and an older/smaller one (like my Tique). While it didnt take much to oilcan the hull while some of the foam was out of my Nautique, the Tique exhibited no such tendencies. Clearly the supports are closer togther on the smaller hull, and I bet Pete is right about the thickness of the glass. That little boat was SOLID.

I think both approaches are perfectly acceptable, and I chose to refoam the Tique. The Skier Im doing next will be a runner though (its no looker!), and we hope to ski it hard and often. With no platform, Im betting that the boat will spend a good amount of its time soaked to the bone- so Im thinking that the best approach would be to give the water a chance to escape. Im afraid there will be ample opportunity for it to get in!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 3:00pm
[QUOTE=BuffaloBFN] Hey, any chick holding her own with this crowd!   LOL

I miss all the inside jabs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

It could easily be my memory, but maybe some have changed their opinion on foam?


I haven't changed my opinion on not foaming the pre 80's hulls!! It's one of the very few things I will bend my "keep it original" ideals!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 3:29pm
Well said Tim. With a shorter and narrower boat, that makes good sense...older may also be a factor in construction. My BFN is the only boat I ever cut into...I learned to ski behind something like the last craigslist you posted.

I also noticed some hull flex when I first started on mine; you may remember me being concerned about that. I'm super happy I put foam back in mine, but the application seems to be different.

So I'm the guy who is talking about a newer boat than this thread is about?!!?   LOL
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BuffaloBFN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Actually, Im guessing that Greg's referring to me!


I could admit to that...but I'd have to include others!   
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sanity View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 3:41pm
Gentlemen,

Tell me one thing you've changed your mind on or "flexed" a bit since you did your first project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 3:45pm
I'd like to see some actual testing of noodles in the hull. They have to trap some water and they definately cut down on air circulation, but does anyone really know how many noddles it takes to float a boat?

I am not using flotation in my Mustang and the Classic never has had any.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

I'd like to see some actual testing of noodles in the hull. They have to trap some water and they definately cut down on air circulation, but does anyone really know how many noddles it takes to float a boat?

I am not using flotation in my Mustang and the Classic never has had any.

Bruce, I *think* somebody did a calculation on here at some point. I dont think it would take much to make the hull buoyant. I doubt the noodles themselves would trap any water since theyre closed cell foam- they wouldnt make for very good pool noodles if they did. If theyre strategically placed and there are adequate drains in the stringers, I bet they wouldnt trap any water at all. Cheap insurance to keep the boat at the surface if it fills up with water!

Michelle, one thing I would have done differently was on the bulkhead and air inlet hoses on my '90... I beefed them up quite a bit the second time around on my Tique.

I doubt I will do another partial stringer restore either. Im confident in the end result, but looking back at it now, removing the engine and starting from scratch probably would have been easier. Fiberglass work is miserable enough as it is- not having a place to stand sucks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

does anyone really know how many noddles it takes to float a boat?


Someone needs to get the weight and the volume of the basic noodle. The weight per cu.ft. is then subtracted from the weight of water (62lbs per cu. ft.) and you will have the buoyancy. Now the tough part - the buoyancy of the fiberglass hull, engine (negative) and things like the seat cushions??? Whos got a noodle??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 4:14pm
Maybe Boat Dr could take the hull of that blue Mustang he picked up and do an actual test for us.

Tim, a flooded boat is a concern at Lake George. Remember that cabin cruiser wake I went through in your boat? That could have sunk a Mustang pretty easily and maybe even your 1990.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 4:25pm
Something floats because it actually displaces more water weight than it actually weighs. This is why a heavy metal ship floats.

I'm going to use the metric system since the weight of water per volume is easy: 1 Liter or 1000cc (or ml) equals 1 kg or about 2.2 lbs. We're going to use 1 foot of showtime's 3.5" diameter noodle. Converting this to metric we use 1"=2.54cm. So, the noodle is 30.48cm long by 8.89cm in diameter.

Here goes: volume of a cylinder=pi(r)(r)(length)or 22/7 X 4.445cm X 4.445cm X 30.48cm = 1892.7cc or 1.89L

Converting the weight of 1.89L of water back to pounds is 1.89kg X 2.2=4.16 lbs. This does not take into account the hole going down the length of the noodle if you did not purchase a solid one. In other words, the noodle will actually support a little less than 4.16 lbs!

1 foot of 3.5" diameter pool noodle should float about a 4lb piece of metal on top of the noodle.

Remember, if your boat is "sunk" it is displacing water so the pool noodles don't really have to support the entire weight of your boat. In other words, if your boat weighs 15 lbs, you don't really need 15 lbs of buoyancy although it certainly won't hurt if you can fit it all .

Yeah.... I figured this all out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by sanity sanity wrote:


Remember, if your boat is "sunk" it is displacing water so the pool noodles don't really have to support the entire weight of your boat.


Not with a hole in the bottom of the boat!!!! We are talking about flotation for a catastrophic event.

Michelle,
Something doesn't sound correct with the 1' pool noodle. It should displace more than 4lbs. Do the calculations over in English!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 7:46pm
Notice the eye winkie... I didn't figure out the calculations.... Pete, wouldn't "sunk" be catastrophic? I think I'm missing something in the conversation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2008 at 10:22pm
Michelle,
The mix up here is your statement: "Remember, if your boat is "sunk" it is displacing water so the pool noodles don't really have to support the entire weight of your boat." A sunk boat (hull) doesn't have any displacement because there isn't any air in it. The only displacement would come from materials lighter than water.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2008 at 11:00am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:


Michelle,
Something doesn't sound correct with the 1' pool noodle. It should displace more than 4lbs. Do the calculations over in English!!


Michelle,
You're (or whoever did the calculating!!) correct on the 4lb estimate!!!

Here it is in English:
The noodle 3.5" dia. X 12" long is 115.45 cu. in.
If 1 cu. ft. of water weighs 60lbs. then 1 cu. in. of water weights .03472lbs.
So, 115.45 cu.in. of noodle (X the 115.45) will displace 4.008lbs. of water less the weight of the foam (12" of noodle weight) and less the volume of the hole in the middle.

Now, polyester has a S.G. of 1.25, glass is 2.58 and cast iron is 7.21 so the hull is negative buoyancy. With no foam in a boat, make sure you go down with a close to empty gas tank!!!

I'm still for no foam in the bilge but for adding more under the decks and gunnels.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2008 at 11:58am
I suppose the side panels could be stuffed with them, but you'd have to secure them pretty well so the noodles wouldn't bust out of them.

What about some sort of divers lifting with a large co2 cartrige that could be activated by a pull cord or some sort of sensor?

Pete, I could drill a small hole in the dash and have the cord coming out with a small wood knob on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 65 'cuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2008 at 2:51pm
When I was considering foam or not in my barracuda: Here were my thoughts:

The hull itself: , sink like a stone.
The stringer system, maybe neutral maybe not, there is a lot of fiberglass and resin wrapping those stringers.
The floor, slightly buoyant, again fiberglass and resin.
The carpet, interior, cushions etc. buoyant, but unfortunately probably all the removable cushions would float out of the boat providing no buoyancy.
the windshield, hardware, stereo, battery, sink like a stone.
The gas tank, depending how empty it was would provide buoyancy until it slowly filled with water through the vent.
Then we get to that large chunk of chrysler marine engineering in the middle of the boat. the polyhead 318, all the power of a small block with the weight of a big block.

In my boat the floor of the boat is below the waterline, so assuming that I could fill the entire volume under the floor with air, which would be impossible due to the motor, tranny and other essentials being in the way, the boat would still not float if completely swamped, so additional flotation would have to be added under the gunnels in the bow, around the gas tank etc.

long story short, I'm not sure pools noodles would provide enough floatation, even with lots of them below the floor, you may still need them above the floor. they may buy time or save a partially swamped boat.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roachie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2008 at 11:54pm
Wow! That sure is a ton of discussion on pool noodles. Better keep the drain plug in.

I haven't heard back from the machine shop on the engine yet. I should hear something this week. Meanwhile, my son has managed to dig out most of the old foam. I've searched most of southern Alabama for douglas fir with no luck. I'm sure I'll find it soon, I'll just have to start looking north.

Gary, nice 'cuda. Is that the original color?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-19-2008 at 8:44am
Sweetwater land and lumber has D Fir. They are west of Atl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roachie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2008 at 3:18pm
Thanks! I'll be headed there soon.

On a more somber note. The machine shop estimate came back at $3300. That's basically a complete re-build ready to drop in. That said, his long block estimate is over $2500. I've found several 318 long blocks on-line for around $1200-$1500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote critter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-23-2008 at 1:57am
Got my 318 Block and Poly Heads back from the machine shop just last week. $1600 for a single sleve and honing the other seven cylinders and new valves and springs for the Heads. I still have to put it all back together. $3300 is not really that bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roachie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-21-2009 at 10:12pm
Wow! It's been a while and progress is slow. I hurt my back in Nov and am just getting to the point I can bend over to work on the stringers relatively pain free.

I finished removing all the foam, which was more saturated than I thought, and the primary stringer, which was in advanced stages of rot. I was able to get it out in one piece so I can use it as a template. Now to get over to GA and pick up some douglas fir.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roachie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2009 at 3:14pm
I'm about to order US Composites's 635 thin epoxy system with medium hardener. I'm also planning on ordering their 7 1/2 oz E Glass cloth and the Arosil-Cabosil filler to complete the stringer job.

Am I on the right track here? I've never worked with this stuff, so it should be interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2009 at 3:57pm
Glad to see this thread come back up!

I used the medium cure epoxy and it was spring here(60's to low 80's). Read through the details on the USComposites site. I also got mil fiber, phenolic microballons, talc, and a variety of cloth types and weights. Did you read through the 'patch'? I was asking all the questions you are back then!

The cabosil is a great filler and the lightest weight I think. It's also a cat-and-dog thing to sand! For fairing or leveling the microballons are the way to go. Mil fiber will increase strength and talc is a good, cheap filler. Talc is also helpful with shaping where the others aren't so much(fillets).

For reference, I used mat, cloth, cloth tape, and biaxial.
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