No start, searched, accel pump?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6501
Printed Date: June-01-2024 at 3:18am
Topic: No start, searched, accel pump?
Posted By: wannabeSS
Subject: No start, searched, accel pump?
Date Posted: April-29-2007 at 2:14pm
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Well I finally got a chance to work on my boat to put the new timing set on etc after my problem. Anyways, I went to fire it up today and no go. My boat had been getting harder and harder to start over the past year. Before the timing gear broke it would take me 20 min of fiddling and putting a jumper on it to start. Today I figured the same thing, but after two hours i couldnt get it to start, even poured fuel down the carb and nothing. I searched on here about accelerator pump problems and people taking off the throttle cable to test. When I took the cable off and pushed the throttle by hand I didnt have any fuel coming out, no matter how many times i pumped it. I figured that there was not enough fuel in the lines because it has been sitting for a while, so I cranked it for a while and still nothing. So now im thinking either the accel pump or the fuel pump is not bringing fuel up to the carb. Any suggestions? ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Replies:
Posted By: rudderdad
Date Posted: April-30-2007 at 2:48am
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By pouring fuel in the carb, you should have gotten something. Are you getting any spark to the plugs? If you still have ignition with points and condensor, it could easily be the condensor, have had even new ones fail. ------------- rudderdad |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: April-30-2007 at 2:55pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
rudderdad wrote:Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-30-2007 at 4:31pm
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Could be your timing is too far off to start the boat. Have you tried to adjust it a bit and see if that makes a difference. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: April-30-2007 at 5:02pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-30-2007 at 7:57pm
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check your starter connections or it may be time for a starter if everything else checks out, it shouldve kicked when you put fuel down the throat of the carb, remove the fuel line to the carb and crank it over making sure you are getting fuel to the carb if you are the bowls should be full, if you crank the carb arm it should spray fuel and you will see this. im wondering why it didnt kick when you poured fuel down her, dont rule out the condensor, with a bad condensor it will still spark ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: April-30-2007 at 10:12pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-01-2007 at 7:01am
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Wannabee, Did you put the fuel pump eccentric back on when you put the new timing chain in?
------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-01-2007 at 7:20am
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no condensor if you converted, good thinking 81, did you remove the fuel pump? alot of times if you do have a bad pump the diaphram will leak gas into the crankcase also, if so be sure to change the oil a couple of times or the gas will wash down the cylinders, thats if gas got in there. concentrate on why you are not getting fuel to the pump. if you were a woman i would say put some gas in it
Eric ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Munday
Date Posted: May-02-2007 at 10:31pm
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I think if you have fire and poured fuel into carb and didn't get any pops bangs or blow backs then your not getting fire at the right moment.On the no fuel issue,if you unhook the line before pump and blow into tank vent you should get fuel,after reattaching line and cranking you should get fuel to carb,if not then your fuel pump is bad or the fuelpump cam is not installed right.
Munday |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-03-2007 at 8:39am
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-03-2007 at 8:43am
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-03-2007 at 9:55am
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well if you sucked it and got it up, you shouldnt pull it though after its up. sorry these are your words,
anyways on the fuel push rod you have to find the low side of the cam and grease the rod so it holds up in there ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-03-2007 at 10:30am
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Wannabe,
I have to look at your situation as 2 possible problems, First I would tackle is why it's not firing when you prime the carb manually. After reading your posts again, you say you have spark but I wonder if your distributor is out 180 degrees. If you prime it and have spark it should atleast try to fire up. My guess on the fuel is that once the boat fires for a few seconds it will draw fuel and you'll be ok so I personally would not worry about that problem right now. It may stall a few times waiting for gas but prime it again and I think you'll be ok ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-03-2007 at 4:40pm
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I wonder if the coil is going also, I had spark but it wasnt like on my camaro. My car makes a serious blue arc when I test the coil, the boat doesnt, just a little spark. I have 12 volts at the coil so I know it's not power issue. I wish I had another coil to test it with. If the dist was 180 out then my timing chain wouldnt be on correctly because I put the rotor at the #1 tower while the dots were lined up. ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-07-2007 at 6:34pm
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Ok, update... I took the fuel pump out and moved it by hand and had fuel shooting out, so I reinstalled it and now I have fuel at the carb and fuel when I move the throttle. It seems as though the accel pump works fine because it's a steady stream. As I was trying to fire it again I moved the distributor slightly and it sounded like it wanted to start but couldnt. I tried going 180 and it didnt do anything, not even an effort to start, so I put it back the way I had it. Right now I'm trying to do some testing at the coil, I dont have 12 volts for some reason. ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-08-2007 at 9:16am
Ok I did some testing and the ignition module is fine. I have 12 volts at the coil. I pulled all the plugs and some had a little bit of green corrosion so i'm going to change them today and i'm going to change the cap and rotor. I have a question though, I bought some timing tape because my balancer is messed up. I need to know how to install it on this reverse rotation engine so I can time for BDC. This is the tape I bought  ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-08-2007 at 11:26am
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think it's about time you paid someone to fix your boat, your really have some trouble on some basic stuff. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-08-2007 at 8:31pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: May-08-2007 at 9:21pm
| Nice encouraging words there, 79. The guy is asking for help. You know the old adage "if you can't say anything nice......" |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-08-2007 at 9:52pm
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old boy has been at it a while offer a lot of help, and now just getting to replacing the stuff that should have been replaced and check long ago, keeps saying has no problem fixing his hot rod but the boat's kicking his butt please just because the motor rotates the other way means nothing you still do the same stuff to fix it, worried about applying tape to get the timing right should be able to do it with out a timing light to start with just sounds like he's pissing in the wind and it's time to step back and let someone else take over, then again maybe it's a little tougher than just lining up the dots on the timing gears. Besides think this about the third thread he's started trying to get it going. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-08-2007 at 10:13pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 10:03am
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it will crank faster once you get the timing closer, all you have to do is rotate the dist very slightly one direction or the other, one way it will slow down more the other it will speed up. But if you have old crappy plugs, cap, rotor or wire that's not going to help and make it even worse.
like a said before get some old school mechanic that can tune carb'd motor's as well as a FI motor and it will be fixed in about 5 minutes. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 3:04pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 3:25pm
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well it will help if you can have someone else crank while your rotating the dist slowly until it fires and stays running you'll also want to have the throtle cable disconnected so you can run it with one hand and rotate the dist with the other to keep it going double check the firing order just incase you have some wires crossed ccw at the cap. also you will only need to rotate the dist maybe 5-10 degrees and don't have the clamp to loose just loose enough to rotate but still stay put once you let go.
you can go too far with the dist so just because it spins faster doesn't mean it's where it should go. you may have it advanced to much and need to back it off a little. just don't crank it for ever and give the battery a break. two full pumps on the throtle then crank but only the first time. another trick is to just screw down the idle screw so it's high to get the motor going then you can get the timing light out and dial it in to where it needs to be. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 5:19pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 5:37pm
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Ok I looked all over the carb and cant find a model number. I did however look at edelbrock's site and my carb looks exactly like the performer marine carb, the problem is, i dont know if it's the 750 or 600. ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 5:41pm
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makes no difference on what model or brand carb it is, it's starting sound like you didn't install the timing chain correctly and didn't verify that the number one cyl was on top dead center before you started theres a whole lot more to it than just lining up the dots. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 9:33pm
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do your self a favor and invest in a Holley, go through and check out everything 79 is telling you too.
Every Edelbrock carb Ive had in the past always had starting issues... always had to crank the sh*t out of them. it maybe a coincidence with the starting problem, but Ive ran into this twice in the past and the last time i had a Holley 780 laying around and i threw a rebuild kit in it and bolted it on, it fired the car everytime with no more than 2 revolutions ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 9:39pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-09-2007 at 9:51pm
depends if you where on the compression stroke or not with the crank when it was at TDC and also if you installed the gear on the end of the cam correctly. Some gears have different offsets for the timing and if you didn't read the instructions then you who knows. Don't bye it's the carb, then again alot of guys have know clue how to adjust a Q-jet to start with which is what a edelbrock carb is basicly takes a little more skill but once it's set you really don't have to mess with it unlike a holley carb which is easy to adjust but requires frequent adjustments over time. and since it turns freely until it fires then seems to slow down the carb's not going to cause that but a timing chain installed incorrectly will. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-10-2007 at 7:14am
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79,
Is it time to pull #1 plug and check to see if when the piston is at TDC the valves are actually closed? I've been thinking thats the problem all along and you cautioned about this a few months ago when the chain was being installed. I think that would be my next step, only takes a few minutes and atleast you'll eliminate the question. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-10-2007 at 9:25pm
------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-11-2007 at 9:03am
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Pulled the #1 plug and cranked the motor to find the compression stroke, then put the motor at TDC on the compression stroke using the mark i made on the balacer when i had the dots lined up. I opened the cover and both valves were closed. I put a screw driver into the plug hole and felt the piston so it's at or near TDC. I opened the cap and the rotor is pointing at the #1 tower where i put it when I had the dots lined up. I even cranked the motor over to make sure the valves were opening and closing and they were. I'm at a loss, the only thing i can think of is the starter is not spinning fast enough to fire the boat. ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-11-2007 at 9:29am
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The starter not spinning fast enough is never the reason a well timed engine barely needs a bump to start
if your getting a steady stream of gas out of your accelerator pump now then the edelbrock is working more than enough to get that bad boy firing. You have spark, you have gas, as chris is getting a little frustrated about there are only two other things that could be the problem, one is compression which I would check but is not likely and the most obvious thing is improper timing or my favorite mistake the spark plug wires routed incorrectly. I have made every mistake possible in the past in routing spark plug wires and every time I was sure they were right, every time I changed a bunch of stuff that worked fine, and every time when I finally got it right I couldnt believe how easy it was to get an engine to start. http://www.boxwrench.net/specs/ford_302_351W.htm - Check here and make sure, pay close attention to the rotation and numbering and once its right dont be afraid to rotate that cap a bit. Good luck. -Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-11-2007 at 9:54am
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Wannabe,
Joes post made me wonder if your using the wrong firing order. I believe your engine s/b CCW rotation and the firing order is 18456273 not like the link in Joes post correct? ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-11-2007 at 1:51pm
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Nice clarification alan, his firing order should be 18456273, the diagram I linked I to I was citing for cylinder numbering and rotation of the distributor which are the same for both L and R hand engines. I have have made both the numbering and rotor rotation direct mistakes before, damn fords number different, have number one in the wrong spot, and turn the distributor cap the wrong way... I will never figure out how I ended up with 5 v8 fords in my motor pool something went terribly wrong somewhere... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-11-2007 at 2:18pm
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Joe,
I just hope thats his problem so he can get this crap behind him and use the boat again. Without having the boat in front of me I'm out of ideas. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: May-11-2007 at 4:17pm
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I don't believe the starter theory of rotating too slowly. By design, some of the old 40's engines rotated very slow, but if tuned correctly they started right up. And they had old style coils, plugs etc. Ever kick start a Harley. Kicking faster doesn't start the engine....proper timing and fuel make it start.
Not wanting to start a debate, but Edelbrock vs Holley is not his problem either. Both are fantastic carbs. I have both and am in means an expert and can make both work. Save your money and keep troubleshooting. You poured gas into the engine and it wouldn't fire so don't start looking into a fuel problem. So you elimanated fuel as the problem. You say that the plugs have spark. So it must be the timing which could also be off if you ran the wires incorrectly. How did you line the dots up when you istalled the new timing gear? Does your starter just go dead or does the engine rotate? Are you sure the timing gear problem hasn't wiped out your cam? ------------- 64 Skier 66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-12-2007 at 5:59am
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they are both good carbs, it was a personal preference thing, it was kinda of ironic on how brand new out of the box i d*cked with that edelbrock for 6 months not thinking it was the carb and slapped the holley on and it was a entirely different engine, and had the same problem on a boat.
this guy needs a good set of eyes to look at whats going on with this thing, something very simple is being overlooked, and you need to start from the begining such as a compression test, then the gear timing, a wore out distributor bushing will cause a hard start problem, it could be anything and i think its time he takes it to a mechanic to get another set of eyes to look at it because diagnosing this thing without being there is close to impossible ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-12-2007 at 7:11pm
Ok site was down yesterday for me, so i'm back today. When i clicked your link joe i was like  thinking that i've been using the wrong firing order the whole time. But nope, i've been using the right one 18456273. Anyways for you guys not thinking it was the starter, i took the starter to a rebuild shop yesterday. The guy tried to jump it for 2 seconds and it was turning slow and got extremely hot. He pulled it apart today and he said some part (cant remember) was broke inside and the starter was shorting out badly, he said it's not even re-buildable. He told me to buy a new one online b/c it's probably cheaper than his cost. So i'm guessing the short was pulling a lot of power away from the rest of the electrical system including the coil. I said before how the coil didnt really have a strong spark like the stock coil on my car. So i'm ordering a new starter and ill let you guys know how it goes from there. ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-12-2007 at 7:25pm
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Ok, checked the firing order again, even painted the numbers on each wire with white out and the wires are in the right order. I'm just hoping the starter is and has been the culprit of my starting problems since the beginning. ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: wannabeSS
Date Posted: May-22-2007 at 9:42pm
New starter did the trick, fired right up, guess i didnt need that mechanic after all. Thanks everyone for the help  ------------- 96 Camaro SS #1157 84 Ski Nautique, fat sacks, fly high pole 06 LF Fish 125 06 LF PS3 137 |
Posted By: JR_VIC
Date Posted: May-22-2007 at 11:17pm
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Back in 1998 I started having starting problems with my 92 351W SNCB. It was turning over fairly fast and was easy to start cold and then once it got hot it was diffucult to start and sometimes would backfire. I was told to get a new starter because the Pro-Tech needed alot of energy to make the engine fire over and if the starter was bad it would draw too many amps therefore hurting the Pro-Tech ignition. I was doubtful but bought a new starter and the boat fired right up all the time...I was amazed but it fixed the problem. Maybe it was just a weird Pro Tech issue.
Thanks! ------------- "That's not a Snow Cone that's my Ring!" |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: May-23-2007 at 9:41am
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Man, I've seen some starters cause really weird issues. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |