Damn rocks
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47841
Printed Date: May-21-2024 at 5:11am
Topic: Damn rocks
Posted By: edamario
Subject: Damn rocks
Date Posted: July-30-2019 at 1:01am
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Hey gang, I am looking for a little advice/insight from you all. I took out my 79 Ski Tique this weekend and towards the end of the day, the prop hit something under water, either a log or a rock. (it was a "all clear" area which really frustrates). The prop needs some repair, but after impact, I could no longer find neutral. Forward and reverse still worked fine, but there was no in between at all. Any thoughts if this is coincidental or what I have to do to get neutral back? Hoping this Sounds like a cable as opposed to a transmission issue? Thanks in advance, Eric ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-30-2019 at 1:05am
| The easy way to find out if it's a cable issue would be to disconnect the cable at the transmission shift lever and try shifting from forward or reverse into neutral using the shift lever on the transmission and see what that tells you |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: July-30-2019 at 1:28am
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Meaning wether the cable moves? Is there such a thing as it being stretched out? ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: July-30-2019 at 2:40am
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Assuming it was working fine before impact....then impact, now doesn't work......I'm taking a wild guess that the impact caused it. ;- ) Follow the suggestion: disconnect the shift control cable at the transmission, then shift "manually" by moving the lever itself, thereby eliminating the cable altogether. My guess, unfortunately, is that the sudden impact caused internal damage.... ------------- 1994 Ski Nautique "Riot" 1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
Posted By: FFImarine
Date Posted: July-31-2019 at 8:02pm
| Did the engine shut off due to the impact? chances are your trans took the brunt of the impact. Which way does the the shaft turn while in neutral? If it drags in neutral you did internal damage to the trans probably warping the forward clutch pack. We rebuild these on a daily basis and see this all the time from impacts |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:23am
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Sorry for the delayed reply. Didn't have time to get to this till today. No, the engine didn't shut off. I immediately put it in neutral on impact for a "WTF moment". Then back into forward, and it went just fine, though with a lot of vibration as the prop got chewed up. Today, I got back at it, and disconnected the shaft (sorry for lack of proper vocabulary) so I wasn't turning the prop dry. In neutral it does rotate slightly, but I was told by SkiDim that if it can be stopped by hand (or a piece of wood), then it's okay.. Though rotating, it easily stopped, so I figured (hoped) it was okay, and decided to take the boat out to see what it did in water. Off the bat, the prop wouldn't engage in reverse, but worked forward. Trolled about as bit thinking I'd see if it would go into neutral and reverse. Went into reverse, and neutral, but not forward. Finally got forward back, and lost reverse. Fun docking like this, but I managed. After all this, I have to think you're spot on that it's the clutch pack. Ordered the transmission overhaul kit from SkiDim, and looking for an inboard boat repair. Which brings me too... just how hard is the rebuild? I've done it on cars (66 mustang), but is a boat transmission (Velvet Drive 1:1) repair recommended for pros only? Thanks in advance! ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: FFImarine
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:59am
| There pretty straight forward.. if you’ve rebuilt automotive transmissions then it should be a piece of cake. Give us a call if you have questions and I’ll be more then happy to answer any questions you might have. 330-273-8291 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 7:12am
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So it sounds like your transmission works in Forward, works in Neutral and works in Reverse just not all 3 when they're supposed to. They all take turns working per your description. It's possessed and has a mind of it's own  Did you try the suggestion to disconnect the cable and shift it locally at the transmission? It takes about a minute or 2 to check. Then after that you can decide it's broken internally |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 7:19am
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Eric, I recommend you purchase a new damper plate. They are inexpensive and always a good idea to R&R when you pull a trans. From your description of your testing, I feel there's a chance that the plate is damaged and the trans is still good. https://bpi.ebasicpower.com/search_2/show.php?q=damper&qid=43469&tr=%20Damper_Ford%20Drive%20Damper" rel="nofollow - Damper plate for a Velvet Drive. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 8:11am
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If you've gotten a C4 back together right, you should be able to get this back together right The trick is identifying all the damage Or one could hand it off to FF and be assured it will be turnkey ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 8:24am
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Eric, It's always a good idea to ask here first before ordering parts. https://bpi.ebasicpower.com/shop/marine-transmissions-and-parts-borg-warner-velvet-drive-zf-hurth-paragon/borg-warner-velvet-drive-parts/banner-kit-for-borg-warner-velvet-drive-71-72-transmissions" rel="nofollow - There are less expensive (30%) alternates for the same. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 9:03am
You only think it's the same Pete It's missing some pieces that come in the SkiDim kit, but you can find the same Alto kit that SkiDim sells for around 160 at Ebasicpower A little research will tell you the difference Or buying the less complete one like I once did, also tells you the difference. |
8122pbrainard wrote:Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:02am
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Yeah. We tried that. I was having some other carb hiccups, and checked/adjusted the cable as it was a bit off... but I did, in the water, give it a go, and no go. I should've said the only way I could get it to engage in forward (I had to do this twice) was push the throttle more than comfortable, and then it'd catch. Fun! ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:07am
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8122pbrainard - Interesting RE the damper plate. I just realized that I have a Marine engine/trans shop in my town (which is REALLY random) and they specialize in Velvet Drive transmission rebuilds. I think I'm going to do it myself to save the $700, but I wonder if they can look at the damper plate once removed, and tell me if bad or not. ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:09am
Eric, I'm confused. Maybe it's your wording? Did you do as Ken suggested? "locally at the transmission"?
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:12am
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whoops. 8122pbrainard = Pete. Sorry about that. Thanks Pete. ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 3:54pm
If the damper plate is bad, you'll need assistance from no one to figure that out, it'll be terribly obvious. Any strange loud grating noises when the transmission decides to go into whatever gear it wants to? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 4:47pm
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Eric, Are you getting any unusual noises? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 6:02pm
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Not at all. The engine sounds fantastic, and when working the transmission sounds just fine. It's just a violent clunk at too high an RPM when it finally jams into gear. Once going, it's 100% normal sounding. Weird, right? As it's $300 for the parts (plus my mechanic minded father who's thankfully free) I think a full rebuild is in short order. Stopped by marineenging.com to discuss (they are in my town amazingly) and while they do superb work, and would rebuild for $850, I just can't stomach another $850 into this boat. It's become the proverbial "hole in the water...." Ha. I'll take pics through the rebuild & share. Should actually be fun I think. ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 6:29pm
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This may be some help- https://teamtalk.mastercraft.com//showthread.php?t=53874" rel="nofollow - Velvet drive rebuild ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 6:32pm
Weird? Maybe not. Besides trying to shift the trans at the trans shift lever, I think you had better review how to adjust the shift cables. Courtesy of Alan via Gary.
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 10:12pm
So Pete Did you just blow this off and decide to ignore the error in your ways ? I'll assume you did, so I'll post a link to the more complete kit that includes the steel and the bronze clutch plates so that all the clutch plates can be replaced. You should educate yourself on what a banner kit is For the next guy who might be wondering, here's the link https://bpi.ebasicpower.com/shop/marine-transmissions-and-parts-borg-warner-velvet-drive-zf-hurth-paragon/borg-warner-velvet-drive-parts/velvet-drive-borg-warner-marine-transmission-overhaul-rebuild-kit-71-72-1017-18" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 10:53pm
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Busted clutch disc. Rebuild is cake. Just don't do it on the kitchen table unless you're single or wish to be. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 1:39am
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@baitkiller Part 1, no. Part 2, hmmm. @Pete - I hear you on adjusting the cable, and had done so. When it died in the water, we tossed back the engine cover, disconnected and tried to do it manually at the trans. N0 go there either. Appreciate the advice, and will file it away as it's super thorough, but I'm putting money on the rebuild. Kitchen table or not. ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 7:31am
| Do you have a manual to use for the job or are you just wingin' it? |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:38pm
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Winging it sounds like a bad idea. No, I chatted up a few shops, and am doing with someone who's done many auto transmissions in the past. I've found a schematic,. and will keep digging pre doing the job for sure, but it doesn't look much more difficult than a C4 transmission, but looks can be deceiving. Do you have something to share?;) ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:44pm
Nah, just asking You could try the link below though from the CCF reference section http://correctcraftfan.com/Downloads/Velvet_Service_Manual.pdf" rel="nofollow - link It's easier than a C4 but it's good to have the manual. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:49pm
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You can find later versions of the manual on line also. One other little thing....................count the number of clutch plates you take out and put the same number back in otherwise it'll be all bound up and constipated That applies to the forward and also the reverse clutches. The kit has more plates than you'll need. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:55pm
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I repaired mine with no transmission background, it was 25 years ago but it worked great after the fix, I only had a picture of the tranny parts to go by when I did mine. It has been a long time but I remember it being pretty easy. At that time West Coast Correct Craft was right down the street for me and had all parts on the shelf. Back then it was easy to unbolt and lift out the tranny for repair. Might be much harder 25 years later. I would probably need a lift to get it out safely. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 9:31pm
Whats wrong with the link I shared ??  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 9:50pm
It looks great to me. Too bad one of us didn't do it. It would have been a great addition in the FAQ thread.
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 10:06pm
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Now if you use my link and Gary's link together, when Wouter refers to pieces with their reference number in the manual you know just what he's talking about Teamwork Gary As long as he's referring to the same manual it'll be good Wouter didn't disassemble the forward piston and cylinder and replace those seals though.
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Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-09-2019 at 3:09pm
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Ha Pete. Sorry - thats part of my arsenal... along with the Velvet Drive manual which amazingly has break down & rebuild step by step. Thanks for the tip on the number of clutches. That would have got me scratching my head for sure. Mark - really happy to hear you had success with no previous experience. I was mildly considering buying a rebuild for $850... but seems silly as I have the tools and the time. Thanks guys - Eric ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-14-2019 at 11:37am
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Hey Gary - Before I take the transmission out, Im giving your cable adjustment more thought. Didn't make sense to me as all was fine "pre-rock", but on further inspection, I found that when in forward at the morse, the bracket on the transmission was about 3/8" from "all the way forward". Re-adjusted, and tested out of water. Seems to be working now?!? Will test in water this weekend, but I'm cautiously optimistic that I may not have to rebuild after all! I'll let you know. One more for you... while testing, I noticed the engine was getting VERY hot to touch (my dash gauge wasn't working). I ordered & will replace the water pump impeller as the exhaust isn't expelling water like it should. Question for you (or anyone else).. I've read on here that there are two impellers? Where is the second? Again, I'm running a PMC302. Thank you in advance. Eric ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-14-2019 at 12:11pm
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two impellers on most Chryslers, not Fords ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-14-2019 at 12:29pm
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It seems like a long time back it was mentioned by more than one person to disconnect the cable and shift it locally. It's hard to figure out if you did or didn't do that but if you did and it wasn't right, then all the cable adjustment in the world won't fix things. So.............. did you shift it locally and have no problems? |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 12:39am
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I had shifted locally (not in water)... but was "searching' for neutral at the time. Once found, I set the cable base on neutral, vs ensuring forward on the shifter actually pushed the lever on the transmission ALL THE WAY forward. My mistake clearly. Out of water, it now seems fine. Putting in this weekend and will know for sure then. Frustrated with myself if it's as simple as that... but would be happy to not have to rebuild I suppose. TBD. ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-27-2019 at 2:17pm
| I'm kinda curious how this turned out after your weekend or 2 have passed by |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-27-2019 at 3:21pm
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Running dry out of the water will quickly eat your impeller. These boats do not allow a quick dry start on the trailer. If not in water the impeller self destructs. Sounds like your tranny may be Ok, that would be a bonus. Might look into what changed to cause the cable to be out of adjustment. Normally you set them once and they are pretty much good till the cable fails. Unless working on some other project you bumped or damaged the system. ------------- |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: September-01-2019 at 11:00pm
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Okay - 2 weeks gone by, and the transmission was NOT an issue. Once the cable was adjusted, it is just fine. I'm guessing that the impact of my little prop hit did something to the adjustment... but thats just a guess. Of course, one problem reveals another. Now that I've gotten to take the boat out a few times, I've a reoccurring issue. Runs GREAT art first. Then if I stop for a swim etc (which I do with my kids) and restart 30min or so later, it runs, but starts choking itself back at anything over 15mph. Going to replace the electronic choke on the carb, and noticed that when my points were switched over, they'd not upgraded the Mallroy ignition coil, which I think IS the issue. Just ordered a flamethrower 1.5... betting this resolves the choke out. I hope at least! ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-02-2019 at 9:12am
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I suppose "choking itself back" doesn't tell a whole lot, but if you do your choke and coil change, it's a start and maybe you'll fix it
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Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: September-07-2019 at 12:02pm
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Update for you Keno. What I was experiencing (choking back) was the ending somewhat cutting out, on acceleration. Not electrically, but literally the engine feeling like it just wasn't getting what it needed. Air, gas, Elec... I don't konw how to explain it. You'd push the throttle and it would just choke at anything over 10mph. That said, Turin out it WAS electrical. When the points were switched out to electronic, the ignition coil was not updated. Replaced the coil and it runs like a complete champ now. I think what was happening was the coil was overheating, so not sending spark to the plugs, which were then not doing their job, and so on. I realize my description is kinda bunk... but long story... when updating your distributor from points, you gotta update your coil. Lesson learned:) ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-07-2019 at 8:40pm
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Glad it's running good Numerous times on the forum here, me and some others have said something along the lines of "if you think it's a fuel problem check the ignition system and vice versa" It surprising how many times that saying has worked to solve a problem that has somebody stumped. It's a good saying to remember I learned it from an old fart a long, long time ago A lot of conversions are done with the old coil staying in use with no problem, but it may have just been the end of the coils life no matter what ignition system it was feeding. It's a good idea to get a new coil to go with the electronic conversion though So..............what is your electronic conversion and what is the new coil (brand and part number) just to be sure they're "properly matched" Now you can get the kids out in the boat again. |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: September-07-2019 at 9:55pm
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I hear ignition system and I think "starting", aka the ignition switch. I didn't really understand what a coil did once the boat was started. The answer was probably right in front of my face... but fun thing about all this is learning plenty of new stuff. Now I know a bit more:) The conversion kit was the Sierra Marine 5299 The coil I put in is a PerTronix 40011 Flame-Thrower 40,000 Volt 1.5 ohm Coil Hoping this doesn't raise any red flags! Bummer that I'm "up & running" just in time for the off season, but till some time to go. Onto the next topic, I've got some soft spots in my floor which I may remove/replace over the winter. Seems the recommend is if you're replacing the floor, you should replace the stringers. Would you agree? Seems like a very big job. I'm actually solid with carpentry, but pulling the engine etc fives me some serious pause. Thoughts? How do you konw if they are "bad".... and I saw someone mentioned saturated foam. Just how big a job is this? ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-07-2019 at 10:06pm
No red flags The Sierra kit is really a rebranded Pertronix and the 1.5 ohm Pertronix coil is a good match for it. |
Posted By: edamario
Date Posted: September-08-2019 at 1:13am
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Disregard stringer comment. There's PLENTY of info on this site. Reading away... Thanks for confirming the coil/ignition pairing:) ------------- '79 Skitique - first boat |