Weak starter?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41873
Printed Date: May-17-2024 at 3:04pm
Topic: Weak starter?
Posted By: gt40KS
Subject: Weak starter?
Date Posted: September-03-2017 at 7:47pm
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Since the day I bought the boat, the starter seems abnormally slow, almost like the battery is very low. Both batteries always register 12.7 to 12.9 volts before starting and the engine starts just fine, every time. But it makes me a bit nervous because even with the dual battery setup I installed, I'm afraid the starter may give out while I'm in a remote area somewhere. Is it normal for the GT40's to crank so slowly or maybe the starter is old and weak? Or is it perhaps something else .... Thanks for your input ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Replies:
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: September-03-2017 at 8:22pm
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Before buying a starter, check the voltage drops across the cables, also could be bad contacts in the solenoid. You could have corroded connections or cables. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: September-03-2017 at 10:03pm
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If properly tuned a GT-40 with the proper fuel pressure starts on the first turn of the starter 9 out of 10 times. Shouldn't have to crank more than a revolution or 2 at most. |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-03-2017 at 10:30pm
Well, she must be properly tuned then lol .... But still, I'm curious and concerned. It feels as though if it didn't start after that 1 or 1 1/2 revolutions that the battery wouldn't have the power to continue, which is the troubling part - plenty of juice. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
gun-driver wrote:Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-03-2017 at 10:35pm
Yeah, buying a starter was going to be a last ditch, especially since the engine has never failed to start in just one revolution. I have checked the contacts & cables and they are tight with no corrosion. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: September-03-2017 at 10:46pm
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The info chris gave you is a good start. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-03-2017 at 11:53pm
I agree with Chris. He said "voltage drop"!!! So does Paul!!
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 12:26am
Well, if you want to find out if it'll keep cranking, why don't you pull your coil wire and turn the key? You'll see if the engine will crank for let's say 10 or 15 seconds with no problem or if in say 5 seconds the starter won't crank it over any more. Kinda a quick and dirty test to answer your curiosity and concern  After that you can decide what you may or may not need to do. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 1:17am
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Ken's test could work two fold as in after a long crank I would bet that the suspect cable/wire/connection will be warmer than the other. Of course a meter would be your best bet. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 7:35am
Plus, you can determine if there's a voltage drop across the start relay (solenoid) due to bad contacts. Joseph, Why the dual batteries, what type of batteries are they and what type of combiner? Are you cranking on one or both? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 8:27am
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You can do a lot with a GOOD heavy gauge set of jumper cables too, like bypass all of the wiring to the starter Since you have a 95, you should have the newer small starter with a starter mounted solenoid and also the remote solenoid/relay mounted to the back of the engine. Hook one cable from battery negative to the engine for a good ground and hook the other from the big terminal on the starter solenoid to battery positive. Then a short small jumper from the same big terminal touched to the starter mounted solenoid connection will let the engine crank while you're touching the wire. This could be a 12 gauge wire with an alligator clip on one or both ends about a foot or 18 inches long to give you a little extra to work with. The 2 connections are only a couple of inches apart on the starter. solenoid. See the picture, the jumper goes from the big nut on top to the spade connection in the picture. You might have the spade terminal or just a nut. Just a momentary touch to start the engine. No need to disconnect any of the normally installed wiring as long as you can make electrical contact with the spade terminal or the mounting nut for it.  If the key is OFF it will only crank If the key is in RUN it will start and run even after you remove the small jumper and you then turn it off with the key. This bypasses all of the wiring to the starter including the heavy gauge cable from the battery to the remote solenoid, the remote solenoid to the starter, and the remote solenoid itself. If it cranks faster then you know you have a problem in one of those bypassed areas. If it's no better, then your starter or battery or in your case batteries, would be suspect if it cranks slower than you think it should. Notice that I emphasized GOOD heavy gauge battery cables and your starter should look like the one in the picture. If it's the older starter you can do the same test but a little differently. This is harder to try and explain than it is to actually do it |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 9:45am
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Good info Ken. I might add that make sure you are in neutral because you have also bypassed the safety switch. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 10:04am
Good thought there Duane
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Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-05-2017 at 7:39am
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Good info, I'll try the test next chance I get Ken. Thanks to all ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 4:23pm
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UPDATE: I've done the test as Ken has described and the engine does in fact crank at the same speed as before. So apparently the cables and connections are just fine, as I had suspected. This does however bring up a more pointed inference of the original question that I had posed - Is the engine cranking more slowly than is normal for a GT40, or is the starter just weak? I suppose this is ultimately a subjective question relative to who is listening to the cranking speed and what they consider to be "slow". However, most of us at some point in our lives has had a very weak battery in their cars or boats to the point that the engine will just barely turn over. Continued cranking does nothing but drain the battery quickly to the point that it won't turn at all within a very few revolutions. THIS is the sense I get when cranking the boat. The difference is that when doing Ken's test, the cranking speed increased slightly after a revolution or two and stayed at that speed for a sustained amount of time. But again, just a small increase in speed. So, back to the dilemma: is this just the normal cranking speed of every GT40 out there, is it a weak starter, or is it just the normal speed of this particular starter? Who's to say, I guess. Suffice to say that at this point I now know it is not the wiring or the batteries and since she does start, first crank every time .... Thanks for everyone's input !! ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 4:45pm
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I flooded out my starter last year with saltwater and just didn't feel like fooling around with it. Not being a weightlifter or 30 I bought the smaller gear reduction starter like you have. Check around and see if you can have yours gone through at an auto electric shop but keep in mind the price of a new one. I found this place had a good price on them- http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/search.cgi?keywords=arco+70200&Click+to+Search.x=0&Click+to+Search.y=0" rel="nofollow - Discount Marine Supplies ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 4:53pm
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one could disable the ignition and give it an extended crank. Then quickly find the warmest component in the loop, from lugs, cables, connectors, solenoid, starter, battery post, not just POS but GND also. The warmest component, is then the most suspect component. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 4:59pm
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Being one of those types that likes to have spare parts on hand, I'd buy another starter and put it in. Then you'll know if there's a difference and you'll have a spare starter too for the day when you need it.. A little voice in my head says you have a weak starter mostly because a GT-40 will turn over just as fast as any other 351 Like Gary said ARCO 70200 or something that cross references to it It's a clockwise rotating starter which is what you need for your normal rotation Ford. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 6:52pm
Gary, With myself getting up there in age like yourself and dealing with 80 lb. bags of concrete and 1/3 sq. bundles of shingles wearing the orange apron, I certainly understand the weight issue. However, you being one of CCfans best tinkerers, I'm surprised you didn't mess with the starter!! You know like I've said a few times, a good commutator and bushing cleanup is all it would probably have needed. I'm sure Ken would have tinkered!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 7:16pm
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I just picked up an '87 Martinique and noticed it had a very slow crank situation as well. I checked for corrosion on all connections, and wire brushed it all. Checked ground connection. Battery was very strong. Cables appear new, and VERY HD. I even took the starter to AutoZone, and they confirmed it was "good"....just because the drive gear engaged when hit with juice. However, I still suspected the starter. Took it to a rebuild shop in the Chicago burbs that works on my stuff (and whom I trust), and my guy there called me today to let me know he rebuilt it. He said it was loaded with rust, brushes were busted up, and the drive was bad, He rebuilt it for $125. I will pick it up this evening and reinstall. I should be good to go. He told me to look no further as to the issue. We will see. I have been watching a lot of Youtube videos on this topic. An interesting fact emerged. ~90% of problems are usually cable or connection related. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 7:50pm
David, Now you know how good of a job they do with their "testing".  I am surprised they didn't tell you it was bad and then tried to sell you a new or rebuilt one. That however is probably good since chances are high that Autozone would have sold you the wrong rotation!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 8:27pm
What's a commutator? Is it a little economy car that you use to commutate back and forth to work Something like a Subaru Forester? What's it nickname? I forgot
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 8:59pm
Ken, For the benefit of others who may not understand your "tongue in cheek" : "A commutator is a moving part of a rotary electrical switch in certain types of electric motors and electrical generators that periodically reverses the current direction between the rotor and the external circuit. It consists of a cylinder composed of multiple metal contact segments on the rotating armature of the machine."  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 10:30pm
Well I didn't want to do it halfway,I would have had to take it apart,then I would have wanted to paint it. Then the fact it sits so low in that boat,the engine beds sit about 6" down from the top of the stringers, that I just didn't feel like messing with it. Then added to that we were about to take our 180+ mile river trip,that in the scheme of things $125 give or take didn't want to take a chance. All that plus the peer pressure too,I'd rather take the flack for not fixing the old one,I like being the boat in front of the rope. http://imgbox.com/OvCND6fd" rel="nofollow">  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 12:10am
| Its no wonder it's so hard to find someone who rebuilds starters around here, when you can get rebuilt units on eBay http://m.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Marine-Engine-Starter-CCW-3138-/161874248581?epid=508909412&hash=item25b0750385%3Ag%3AOtoAAOSwhcJWM7lN&_trkparms=pageci%253Af199ad9e-9370-11e7-86e0-74dbd180a4e3%257Cparentrq%253A5a153ff015e0ab1ce498fcbdffeb91ad%257Ciid%253A2" rel="nofollow - for $90. . I wonder if the internals are of decent quality... but with a 1yr warranty I can't imagine they're that bad. |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 12:39am
I just put my rebuilt starter on. That was the issue. Cranks like a Mack truck. Now I have to run to AutoZone and pick up a new deep cycle marine battery that the sales clerk recommended for starting my 351 motor....and get my new Fram oil filter.
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Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 1:23am
Being a kindred spirit, this is exactly what my inner voice was telling me to do... The wife was hoping I was deaf to the inner voice ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 1:25am
HA HA HA.... funny stuff ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 1:55am
Dave if your going to the Cary one will you check and see if they have any Spitfire spark plugs and some Slick 50? I can't wait on a JC Whitney order.  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 6:31am
Tim, read the bottom line. Makes it worth while to put one on the shelf. That even sweetens the deal more Specifications: Unit Type Starter Voltage 12 Rotation CCW Teeth 9 Starter Type DD Brief MARINE APPLICATIONS WITH FORD ENGINES B+ STUD Item Condition New ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 10:49am
Don't want Joe to buy one of these for his GT40 though 'cause it'll turn the engine over backwards. Remember ARCO 70200 or something that cross references to it for the small high torque starter that rotates the right way. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 11:22am
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Take it apart clean it up and put it back together -- if you find big chunks of magnets or something melted then move on and get a replacement. I don't know if I am too cheap to buy a replacement or just too lazy to order one - but its been a long time since I couldn't get one back in the game with a bit of emery paper, contact cleaner, and compressed air. I have taken to holding the brushes in place with little zip ties until I get them partially inserted and then removing the zip ties... I suspect somewhere there is a slicker tool for that but I have been too lazy to order one. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 11:49am
Joe, I'm sure glad someone else thinks the same as I do with starters. I've been chastised too many times here even suggesting opening up a starter!! BTW, I'm sure you know that new brushes are available and not expensive but typically not needed due to the low run hours on a starter.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 6:36pm
Yeah I got that, though I'm a bit slow with some of this stuff since direct drives are all new to me - thanks for clarifying though... Funny, I was reading another post a couple days ago where you were discussing rotation of an older (1980?) SN and had said CCW. I had to stop for a minute and go check mine because I had already taken delivery of a used 422 RH from a buddy of mine - thought that might be a bit embarrassing if I had to see if he would take it back because it was the wrong hand  ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 7:01pm
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This whole rotation thing can be kinda confusing. You have a standard rotation engine so it needs a clockwise rotating starter if you decide to get one, which the Arco 70200 is. Then you have a 1.23 to 1 pcm transmission which reverses the direction of rotation inside the transmission. That means your LH (normal rotation) engine is spinning a RH (reverse rotation) prop And that means your Acme 422 RH prop is correct for your boat and will make your boat go forward when you want it to I think you understand that already, just thought I'd say it again |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: October-05-2017 at 1:06am
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Well I finally got around to installing a new Arco starter using Gary's link to Discount Marine. Works perfect, cranks strong and much faster than before. Guess the old starter was just ... old. And weak. Thanks to all for your input !! ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-05-2017 at 7:31am
I figured you'd get there eventually. Maybe you can send your old starter to Pete for a fluff and buff I wouldn't get rid of it, keep it around as a spare that you know will at least work or tear into it and do your own fluff and buff |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-05-2017 at 7:49am
Those inner voices are usually smarter than we think |