1950 CC Junior Utility Restoration
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23038
Printed Date: May-18-2024 at 5:07pm
Topic: 1950 CC Junior Utility Restoration
Posted By: juniorwoody
Subject: 1950 CC Junior Utility Restoration
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 8:10pm
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Greetings to all. I am new and this will be my first post. I have lurked for some time and my son even longer. He has an older Nautique. My involvement came into play recently when he discovered this wooden boat for sale on your forum. As a retired woodworker with a passion for toys and time on my hands he thought it a good father and son project. The story goes on and on but, here we are and with a old CC under serious repair. There will be pictures to follow and many questions. Thanks for running a great site. Jack ------------- The value of money spent on new adventure far exceeds the value of money saved for the future |
Replies:
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 8:13pm
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Jack welcome to the site! We look forward to seeing the pictures. Use this thread to record your progress. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 8:17pm
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Jack,
Sounds like from your screen name the boat you found is a "Junior". Fantastic and we'll be waiting for the pictures. Those were typically double planked so do plan on a complete down to frame restoration. (I have a feeling it hasn't had one!  ) do plan on doing a 5200 job. It's the only way to go!!!
Welcome to CCfan. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 8:25pm
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Yes, thanks to all for the quick responses. I have not yet found ser# and may not as there has been some stringer work done previous. The motor ser# if original (got to go by something), indicated the year as 50. I suppose it could be 51. I am currently removing one stringer and trying to figure what to use for replacement. Looks like the more available may be white oak. We shall see. Pictures soon I promise.
Forgot to add it is a plywood hull. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 8:33pm
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Jack,
Even though White Oak was used by many of the high end boat builders, in a Junior it's not needed plus it's too heavy. Back then CC used Mahogany for their stringers when they had the supply. It was available in large sizes and cheap. Then, they switched to using Doug Fir. That's a great alternate if you can find it in your area. The other big stringer material that was used by some was Sitka Spruce. ( my X55 Dunphy has Sitka) That stuff has gotten so expensive that Mahogany may be cheaper!! 
What's up with the stringers? Is the hull in that bad of a shape??? Typically the main stringers of any wood boat that is so far gone, the stringers are still good!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 8:56pm
| The hull is in good shape other than the bow is a bit chowdered up. The stringers were patched at some point. Not sure if for of aft section was replaced however there is a joint under front cockpit area. I want to go all the way new. It has become hard to get good quality dfir anywhere and for the slight gain in weight I believe white oak may be the answer. I have a source as I worked in the business. I don't expect this boat to see seasonal immersion again. Probably occasional use. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 9:11pm
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Jack,
We need the pictures!! I have to warn you about the CC double plant process. The used a talc and linseed oil bedding compound between the inner and outer planking. I found it to be a 1/4" thick in spots to fill the gaps and I believe Alan on his Hurricane restoration found even thicker spots!! It has dried out through the years so, the hull needs to go down to the frames. DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU ALL IT NEEDS IS SOAKING!!!! That is an old "wives tale" and a TRUE indicator you have a VERY bad bottom!! Sorry!! Look for the the Doug Fir. Even if you need to bring it it, you'll be better off than goining with the White Oak. Scabbed stringers at the bow end? never!! You will not believe what you find inside that hull. We affectionately refer to the "craftsman" out in the old wood shop at CC as using their "finishing Hatchets"!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 9:29pm
| Sorry, I don't know what the double plank process is. Mine is a plywood hull. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 9:35pm
OK, so you do not have a double plank Junior!! We sure need the pictures!!!
The talc linseed bedding compound was also used on ply hulls. A ply boat should NEVER EVER leak a drop!! The exception is via the prop shaft stuffing box. Get those pictures going!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
juniorwoody wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 10:08pm
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Jack,
If in fact you do have a ply "junior", then its's a "standard" and not the double planked. CC had a tendency to "upgrade" many of their hulls into a deluxe version by simply adding a second layer of true mahogany planking over the top of one of their ply hulls. As long as you have joined us, take a look through the reference section and all the old catalogs/brochures. It's a fantastic source of info. BTW, I'm going to continue to "bug" you for pictures!! One other thing is to NOT listen to other sites about bout building a wood boat. Talk here first and I'll walk you though it. If you really want to get involved with wood boats, think about becoming an ACBS member. It's truly a great organization even though one of our CCfan members doesn't think the same way I do.(sorry Al!! [;)) ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-09-2011 at 11:38pm
| Oh, Yes I do believe the http://contextualpsychology.org/acbs - ACBS Is truly a very wonderful group of fine people. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 12:00am
   
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Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 1:54am
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Cool boat! Great project for sure. Pete has an unparalleled passion for these boats, doing them right, and keeping them original. He knows his stuff too and is very generous in helping others in their pursuit of restoration. You have truly found the best resource out there for your project. I look forward to watching. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:42am
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Jack,
Thanks for the pictures. It sure looks like a non double planked Junior. No ID plate? It may be inside the dog house or on one of the port side hull frames. I sure would not worry about replacing the stringers just because they don't run all the way forward. What I would worry about is as mentioned is that "bedding" compound CC used. There's a good chance that you will be able to unscrew the ply off the frames. The screws are the only thing holding it together with the dried out bedding. I highly recommend taking it down to the frame. If you simply do a cosmetic job on it, the seams will always open up and leak and as mentioned, a ply hull should NEVER leak. Taking it down to the frame will also allow you to take a real close look at areas where there may be rot. The lower transom frame is one as well as the inner keel. What engine is in it? They came with several different Gray's, some Universal's and even a Chris B tagged as a Correct Craft. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:12am
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Jack,
One thing I can't express in words strong enough is the importance of doing everthing as close to original as possible. If not, it will not be a restoration and the boats value will be substantially lower if even existent. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:40am
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Pete. i almost have a guy talked into repowering his dads original 1964 CC (chris) that was left to him in pristine condition, all the original bills of sales, nice boat,
i told him "dont you want to go faster?" lol, because of you, i told him not to touch it ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:41am
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his wife pulled me aside and told me he is obsessed with this boat and he likes it more than her ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 10:18am
Pete, I thank you for your knowledgeable advice. It is probable that I will follow much of it though at times may well go off on my own. As an experienced woodworker it would be my intention to replace any part removed and not serviceable with an exact replica. These old boats deserve nothing less. I may reserve the removal and re-installation of bottom panels for the next owner if needed. The boat is sound and after close inspection the frames would look to be fine. I intend to do the structural repairs topside and hope to flip the boat after and fair and refinish the bottom. May have a better determination as to the extent of that work at that time. Though gaining in value and appreciation the older Correct Craft plywood boats seem to fetch in the neighborhood of 10k max. This kind of return does not justify going overboard on the overhaul rather a clean and complete servicable hull will do the trick and get these beauties back on the water where they belong and not sitting on some display trailer at some show. Just my HO. Thanks again for your sound advice and please keep it coming. Jack |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 10:38am
    
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 10:55am
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Jack,
With your last set of pictures, I now see where the stringers have been sistered!! I've seen some crazy stuff come out of the CC factory from back in the days. That may be original!!
If you find any loose bungs (wood filler on that hull) then the chances are very high that the screw below is loose as well as the ply on the frames. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 11:03am
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Jack,
You haven't mentioned anything about the engine?? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 11:53am
The engine is a 4-75 Gray Marine. I took it out the other day and my son will take it to his garage where they will run it on a crate to check systems. Will follow up with pictures. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 5:33pm
| In need of stringer material I just spoke with a specialty lumber supplier in my area. They have in stock two pieces of lumber 8/4 in white oak. Kiln dried. Cost, about $10 bd ft. or around $150.00 ea. out the door. I'm thinking that with the cost of fir and it's lack of availability this might be a good choice. Open to advice on the contrary or positive. |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 6:45pm
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That price seems super expensive to me. I am in NC and got 2 2x8x12' and 4 1x6x12' for $231 all D Fir. It took me a few days of calling around but eventually found a local guy that ordered it for me and I had it in hand in 3 days. Not a single knot in any of it, and the moisture content was right where it needed to be. I would keep shopping!
Some pics 
 ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 7:30pm
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I would highly advise against the use of white oak for stringers. It's too heavy, it's unstable and too hard.
Leaving too much chance of screw breakage on re-assembly. There are too many other really good choices. One would be white cedar (commonly mistaken for sitka spruce). Other good choices would be cypress, poplar and douglas fir, even mahogany. Not saying it can't be done with white oak, It would be more time consuming. In order to properly re-place the engine stringers you will have to peel off the bottom sheets of plywood. I do agree with Pete on removing the transom and the sides. Three most common places for un-seen rot - transom frames, inner chine and keel. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 7:35pm
| That's one fine looking job you have done on the stringer replacement. Problem is on the woody the material needs to be thicker than the nominal dimension they sell the stock today. Should be closer to 1 3/4" so clean dfir framing will not suffice in my estimation. Thanks for your input DrCC. I did use similar stock on my son's tique last year and it worked just fine. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 7:44pm
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And I agree with Keegan about shopping around.
Sometimes you can find certain woods that haven't sold very well in a particular area. For example there is a lumber co. not too far from me that still has mahogany from years ago for only 6.00 board ft. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 7:52pm
Keegan is right about shopping around and I thank him for that guidance. I have determined that the difference in weight per bd ft between oak and dfir. Oak weighs in at 4.2 lb bd ft and dfir weighs in at 2.6 per bd ft. We are not talking a lot of material here so is weight really a factor? Would love to find mahogany to do it in. Far as the fasteners breaking in 40 yrs of woodworking and cabinetmaking I've learned to deal with that. What kind of mahogany was that species? |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:17pm
This still has me laughing! LOL Oh, the good DrCC!!!! ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:34pm
Jack, I have to disagree. Where are you getting this information? As mentioned previously, I feel the White Oak is way overkill plus you what to go to 1&3/4 dressed??? Have you compared the flex modulus of the rather poor quality Philippine Mahogany CC used for their frames to the White Oak? It's not even African!!! Just as a comparison, did you price out one of the Mahogany species? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:37pm
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It's not so much the weight of white oak that bothers me.
It's the un-stability over time. It was a phone call inquiry on the mahogany, so I haven't seen it. I asked for mahogany, the kid on the phone said: "Yep, we got some, it's been back there for awhile." I've been waiting for things to quit carving into the wallet to go and buy all of it. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:44pm
Jack, Silicon bronze fastenings and no matter what type of lumber you put back in, I highly recommend a CPES treatment. BTW, with only the Gray 4-75 engine, the extra weight may make a difference. CC had higher HP options. Still, a Junior with the 75 should move along at about 35 but you may have to throw you wife overboard to compensate for the White Oak's extra weight! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:47pm
I agree, I've seen some pretty weird shapes of White Oak frames come out of a hull!! To the point of pulling fasteners!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:50pm
Steve, Well, as a ACBS member, this puts me in a "tight spot" since I feel the comment was sarcastic?? If it was, I love you too!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 8:57pm
| Thanks to Pete and DRCC for the input. It sure helps in the decision making process. I will sure shop around for mahogany before I purchase anything. The original stringer measures 1 5/8' thickness and I think by the way it rests on the perches that is the optimum thickness. DrCC knows the rules about wimen on the boat. I do plan to CPES every part I put on this boat but it is important to note that oak weighs in very heavily on the rot resistant scale and that is a very important consideration as we note that all previous replacement has been from rot. |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:12pm
Pete, First of all..... Love ya Man! What had me laughing was the link.... I don't think anyone looked at the hyperlink.... what a wild bunch of double speak! Wayyy too funny ...... BTW - I am easily distracted on this site..... I follow link after link after link..... sometimes it actually pays off! ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:13pm
That's only because CC' surface planer wasn't working that day!! seriously, you will find their workmanship to be very low and the reason I made the "finishing hatchet" comment!!
Absolutely and the reason many of the premium boat builder used it but, you shouldn't have to worry about it too much since, you're doing the CPES. Also, I don't feel the Junior will be sitting in the water for extended periods of time. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:17pm
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I could have sworn I've heard someone say that
Sarcasm was the most flattering form of affection. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:22pm
| You'll have to admit that thirty five bucks a year makes for a pretty expensive fifty cent newsletter. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:29pm
| If anyone would have bothered getting out the tape measure they'd find all stringers were 1 5/8". |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:34pm
Now thats a helpful piece of information I couldn't get elsewhere. Thanks. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:44pm
Wow, now I'll need to take the tape measure and see what the X55's and the Atom's stringer thickness is!! The X55 has Sitka Spruce and the Atom of course has the Mahogany.
Al, BTW it's not a "newsletter" but a magazine and it's called the "Rudder". When was the last time you took a look at it? I've been a member since 1979 and have always found it to be a wonderful group. Of course the local chapter does make a big difference. You must have a bunch of AH's down by you!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 9:44pm
------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 10:15pm
Billy, You are correct as far as this being a problem area and I did forget to mention it. It's the low spot of almost evey older wood hull. It's more of a problem with double planked hulls. The water sitting/trapped between the two layers seems to contribute to rot at that point. Yes, CC went real cheap (as well a other areas) on the stem and used ply to laminate up the curvature of the stem.  Then, tried to mate it with the inner and outer keel with layering the lamination's. The ply lamination with only their bedding compound to seal it quickly sucked up the water. BTW, what I found is they even used short lengths of scraps to laminate their stems!! Plus junk ply and NAILS!!!!!
Every time a topic like this comes up and we talk about the old "hackers" out there in the CC shop comes up, I shutter!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-10-2011 at 10:30pm
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The "Rudder" was probably the number one choice for the magazine title. Had they selected "The Shaft" well....
that would have been way too obvious. How far off is my 35.00 per year guess? All kidding aside, I just don't feel my '74 is classic enough for me to give them my gas money. |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 12:27am
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DRCC, Gotta disagree with your reasoning on the cost of membership.The magazine is first class, the best friends money can buy at any show.We are members of a chapter 550 miles from us, the chapter closest to us just did not "FIT". We kept our membership in ACBS and found a chapter better suited to our needs" Sunnyland Chapter" in cental Florida was the home we were looking for.
You sure are missing a lot, IMHO.....35.00 wont give me an afternoon ride.... ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 1:18am
Interesting and insightful observations here. I think I have just the stem described by Pete and perhaps a leak to be determined where the stem meets the keel as Billy points out. I will need to rebuild the stem from the inside out. This is the next job after the stringers and before flipping the hull and tending to the bottom needs. I will be looking for backyard methods of rolling the boat at that time. |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 2:06am
come on guys the stems aren't that bad.
Billy is you stem actually plywood? Mine was at least mahagony. If the stem in that boat is suspect you will never get it repaired without pulling it apart, it is a lot of work but woth it when it comes out solid as a rock 
 ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 2:26am
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Absolutely. Re-building a bow stem from the inside would be one neat trick I've never seen before.
In fact this would be one area where I would re-build the bow stem with one piece of over dimension stock like a Chris Craft. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 2:30am
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Well actually the entire stem would be two piece with one "S" joint.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 8:02am
Steve, I never went to Al's "ACBS" link!! I did now!! Thank's for clearing it up.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 10:11am
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Al, that link was a riot. The ACBS does a great job of putting on shows. From what I've seen around here their members aren't into Correct Crafts. There's definitely way more knowledge and interest on CCF. ------------- |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 11:59am
Yes a traditional stem and gripe would make things easier than building a laminated one like I did. No jig to build, no steaming, no glue up. That was a quite a time consuming process. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 1:05pm
You did a fine piece of work on the stem rebuild. Did you put all new hull material on also? I was trying to stay away from that but do have some marine ply if needed. Thought about making the stem from solid material and in a few pieces. The modern glues are more friendly than resourcinol and perhaps with a strategic reassembly and reglueing in place I may be able to get the repair accomplished. Remains to be seen. I have made many a chair with steam bending and the process though time consuming can be rewarding as is apparent in your stem rebuild. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 1:21pm
Pictures of the Gray that came in her. I have no reason not to think it's original.
    
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Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 1:46pm
Yes my project has new bottom and topside planking as I had several frame repairs to make. You'd have to refasten the hull side & bottom plywood to the new stem anyway so might as well just remove the fasteners and let the ply move away from the stem a few inches so you can get good access. It is done all the time without complete removal and you'll know exactly what you've got for a structure, might find some rot in the chines at the stem that need addressing. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 2:56pm
| I suspect this repair is best done with the boat upside down so that will be the next challenge as soon as the new stringers are in place. Best way to flip a boat in the garage or driveway is what I'll be looking for. Then the fun begins. I do have some heavy duty dollies to keep under the boar longer term. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 3:18pm
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Jack,
That hull isn't that heavy. If you have the manpower, you can roll it over on a few old tires and movers blankets. Just screw some temporary bracing between the gunnels. I'd "X" brace low to high on a couple of frames. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 5:10pm
This is obviously not a correct craft but shows you can open them up with out complete removal of the sides. Gives you much better acces for repairs.
courtesy of Halls boats. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 7:45pm
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Jack,
What are you planning on doing with the chewed up ply hull sides where it meets the stem. Hopefully you're not just planning on covering it up with a cutwater - That Junior never came with one and that wouldn't be very original!! I suggest seeing how far you would need to cut the ply back and then rebuild the stem (and deck) accordingly. No one is going to get a tape measure out to see if the hull is 3/4" shorter than it should be (CC never got them that close anyway! ) plus you do not want to get into scarfing new ply together for the hull sides.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 8:01pm
Pete, thanks for your guidance. You have given me confidence in the roll over. I was contemplating scarfing a little ply in but am worried about doing that on a curve. Another one of those problems that needs to be hashed out. Since it is all paint grade in that area I believe, I might just skim coat the stuff that's still sound and splintered on the surface. Not sure. Found a nice stick of douglas fir today More on that to come. It is now sitting on the workbench.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-11-2011 at 8:44pm
Jack, You may be a great woodworker but maybe not thinking too much about the scarfing of modern day ply and the problems it creates with finishing. Today's plys have at best a 1/64" face veneer - you have NO room for sanding!!!! (the old plys came in to the boat builders with over 1/8" mahogany faces!!) If you scarf join the "new" plys with any adhesive (epoxy is my choice) any surplus on the face will seal that surface preventing you from doing ANY grain fill and stain. What needs to be done if you must reskin a ply boat and scarf with ply is to pre fill, stain and pre finish the ply with a couple coats of varnish, cut the scarf, make the joint with the epoxy, wipe off the excess off the sealed surface and go from their. You had better have a BIG fixturing table set up for the cutting of the actual scarf as well as the gluing/clamping since the procedure needs to be PRECISE!! Sorry but I'm now questioning your woodworking skills or at least you finishing skills???? YOU MUST think the whole process though from start to finish!! Cut the ply back and make the stem to fit!! Please fill us in on your ACTUAL skills!!! I still feel (as well as Al) That you are making a big mistake with not pulling that ply skin.!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 1:02am
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"Sorry but I'm now questioning your woodworking skills or at least you finishing skills???? YOU MUST think the whole process though from start to finish!! Cut the ply back and make the stem to fit!! Please fill us in on your ACTUAL skills!!!"
....regarding my skill set sir it would behoove all contributors to bring to the table a liberal offering of diplomacy a quality I find myself in want of in your last entry. With no desire to create a great debate I can't help but note I find it appalling that you would suggest a drastic alteration which changes the very profile of the vessel as an alternate to a well executed repair. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 1:10am
The old stringers have been removed and the new are in the works. |
Posted By: dip
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 2:17am
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Jack,
Please keep posting your project. Don't let an arrogant, condescending SOB keep the rest of us from seeing your progress. I'm looking forward to seeing your skills exhibited. One day I hope to tackle a similar project with my kids. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 9:03am
Jack, Sorry but sometimes diplomacy is hard to convey in words. I do have that problem at times and I know everyone has. I really was not questioning your woodworking skills but also please understand that we have not seen any proof of that skill level yet. I feel I have. Again, the point I was trying to make is fininshing the scarf joint with the problem of excess adhesive on the face veneer. You are corrrect that the scarf is easy for any good woodworker. I actually made a router sled and guides for panel scarfing since they are not available commercially. Please keep the pictures coming and again, I'm sorry for what I beleive to be a misunderstanding of my intent. You will find that I'm probably the biggest "keep it original" member here but, do not feel cutting back the ply at the stem roughly 3/4" and trimming down the forward frame a little will create a "drastic alteration". Tell us more about your thoughts on the repair. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 9:07am
Darren, Was this directed to me???? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 11:27am
hi dap, there is no greater reward than working on a project with your child. I always marvel at the aptitude they develop over the years and getting to enjoy the final outcome together is an added bonus. My son and I have rebuilt a couple old tractors and last year installed a new floor in his Nautique. We share the same enthusiasm for wood boats, specially the models not so coveted by the elitists. I don't wear starched shirts either. Will be posting pics as we progress and I thank you for your interest. Jack |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 11:36am
| Hi Pete, Currently I have no more thoughts on repairing the plywood in the bow area. My attention is directed at the stringers. I do want you to note that repairs made in an area that is to be painted are much more forgiving that areas that need to be clear finished. In the case of painted areas, and as long as they can be made to have structural integrity, leveling off the area can be accomplished by various means such as bondo, wood fillers and even epoxy and fiberglass cloth. I have made reproduction furniture and my creed is to stick to detail and dimension. If not, the flavor of the piece becomes diminished. |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 11:39am
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Hey Jack. A number of us are looking forward to seeing your handiwork. I'm a shadetree wordworker myself and enjoy seeing how others do their magic. Make sure to include pics of any shop built jigs you use.
And please try not to take Pete the wrong way. He only means to help. My guess is that if yall ever swapped a story over a beer, you'd both be looking forward to the next time. Heck, I'd even let him use my front door. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 11:55am
Yep and if there's something he doesn't know the answer to he will find it. He's helped me out on projects far beyond these boats most recently trouble shooting electrical problems on some equipment at work after a power surge from storms. You can not put a price on this guy's knowledge and willingness to share it. That said Jack, he doesn't beat around the bush when he has an opinion either but I think you've wise enough to see it for what it is. Enjoy the project and keep us up to date, these threads are very enjoyable to watch unfold. Dip, Pete's a good guy, if you meet him in person you'd know instantly where he's coming from. That's what the reunions are for, I believe we met at Lake George a few years ago. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: dip
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 12:27pm
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Pete, I apologize. I came home grouchy from a long day and I took your comment too harshly. I have things I'm very good at, things I'm okay at and things I'm downright bad at but I'd never question someone else's ability or degrade their skills, even if they were questionable (not that I'm suggesting that here). I do appreciate the obvious experience and perspective you bring.
Jack, I made my living as a furniture maker for a decade. I will be particularly interested to hear how your skills apply to a boat project. Woodworking has many, many specialties and being a master at one or two doesn't make one even a novice at another. It's precisely the ability to learn another set of skills using the same tools I look forward to. That plus I hope it helps my kids connect to boating as passionately as I have, which I credit my grandfather for. Hope y'all have a good day. And I do hope to make more reunions |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 7:32pm
Darren, Accepted and really appreciated. Thanks big time!!  I too certainly have taken offence at some posts completely misunderstanding the members true intent. It just happens!
So, a furniture maker. You MUST tell us more!! I'm very curious and interested! To avoid a highjack of Jack's thread, how about filling us in with a thread in the "off topic" section. Don't forget we love pictures!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2011 at 7:44pm
Jack, Absolutely a painted hull is pretty easy to fair however, you have a bright hull which makes repair more difficult. You hopefully aren't thinking about paint are you? Any fairing under paint or on the bottom, stick with epoxy and the needed filler. Bondo is a polyester and is hygroscopic. You don't want it with wood. Also, stay with the 5200 system and not a "west" bottom if you do decide to tear into the hull that far. The "West" bottoms are failing big time!! It should have never been used for wood boat repair. It just doesn't flex enough and our old hulls do flex plenty!! I made the mistake on my 54 and there are a couple areas where I do see hairline cracking. The epoxy system when it came out was "easy" but really designed for veneer cold molding a hull. Many fell into the "trap"!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-14-2011 at 9:32pm
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"Hey Jack. A number of us are looking forward to seeing your handiwork. I'm a shadetree wordworker myself and enjoy seeing how others do their magic. Make sure to include pics of any shop built jigs you use."
Hi Buffalo, Don't worry, I plan to take lots of pictures as I go and I will share anything I may have of value or ideas on fixing up this old gal. I will also remain humble and look to those who have traveled before me to guide. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-14-2011 at 9:37pm
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"You can not put a price on this guy's knowledge and willingness to share it. That said Jack, he doesn't beat around the bush when he has an opinion either but I think you've wise enough to see it for what it is. Enjoy the project and keep us up to date, these threads are very enjoyable to watch unfold."
Hey 81Nautique, The threads are interesting and informative only with the interaction from other members like those I have been fortunate enough to have heard from. Certainly a good deal of the fun is in the posting and sharing. Jack |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-14-2011 at 9:46pm
Hello Pete, I can see we need to get me educated more before the hull repairs. Not sure what the 5200 system but I believe you that it is the one to use. I have dug up as much as I can on the early 50 and late 40 CC Juniors and haven't really been able to determine definitively just what the finish schedule was for my boat. It has had a painted section of the bow for some time which terminates and the clear bright work continues. If you can say for sure what the final look was please share. Thanks, Jack |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-14-2011 at 9:53pm
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Jack,
Keep the pictures coming! Did you decide on a wood species yet? purchased?------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-14-2011 at 10:04pm
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Jack,
The pictures you posted didn't show any paint on the hull sides forward and to my knowledge none of the juniors had "half and half" jobs. They were ether painted or most came through from the factory bright. If, there is paint forward, I'd say it's a cover up from a PO. BTW, if you need to quote someone on a previous post, click on the "quote" at the top of the post and it will do all the needed stuff automatically!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-14-2011 at 10:22pm
This weekend progress was made toward the stringer replacement. Started carving into that very nice, virgin growth douglas fir plank I picked up on Friday. They had my choice of Sitka, mahogany, wh oak or d fir. The fir was the most affordable and came highly recommended here so it was a no brainer.     
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Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 1:38am
Good Evening Pete, When we get to the paint and stem repair I will give some detailed pics. There has been paint on the boat in the past. Blue residuals and white has been stripped off the bow ares where there was a slight serpentine painted area. It's quite likely the boat as you think came through from the factory as bright above the water line. If so I need to decide how important that is to me that I would consider buying new plywood for the hull. Question if that would yield an end result worth the expense and labor. First I intend to keep getting myself committed till the point of no return before someone tells me to scrap the project.
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Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 1:47am
    
Today I removed, cleaned and reinstalled half the mahogany triangular gussets and prepped the two stringers for the final fit. Ten years storage in an airplane hanger has left her high and dry. A pleasure to work on. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 1:56am
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Jack loving the pictures just wish they were a bit bigger. When you resize them 640 X 480 pixels is a good size for this forum. Also check out your camera as you may be able to lower the resolution down to 640 X 480 and then there is no need to resize before posting. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 2:08am
thanks, i will work on getting the optimum size. noticed the detail was a bit lacking. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 8:30am
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Jack,
Considering your Junior is a 1950, I'd say it was bright from the factory. Later years is when paint would have been more prevalent. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 10:38am
What do you mean by "bright?" ------------- Steve 2011 Sport/Air 200 Excalibur 343 2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs) Former Malibu owner (07, 09) |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 11:14am
Stained and varnished as opposed to painted. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-16-2011 at 12:00pm
To be sure the information on finishes seems to be lacking. History has escaped our records on that one. I really can't find much mention of my boat at all. This may be one area where the decision is made in favor of the boat reconditioner and considering what there is to work with. I do not plan on buying new ply for the hull at this point. |
Posted By: Chopper
Date Posted: August-17-2011 at 1:50am
Subject to Pete's approval ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1540&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1996&yrend=2000 - 98 Ski |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-18-2011 at 12:10am
Hi Pete, I have contemplating the possibility of making a larger or wider stem that would allow me to trim some bad plywood without altering the boat length. Ever seen that done? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-18-2011 at 7:49am
Jack, Yes, I have once. It was on a pretty hacked up ply boat I saw at one of the shows years ago. The thing looked like a flat nosed Bull dog!! I don't feel you would like the way it would look ether. You didn't like my idea of pulling the stem back but I feel it's a good option. It will not change the looks of the hull nor will it change the way the hull handles. It can't be more than about 3/4" as mentioned before. Trust me, they never built them that accurate anyway! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-18-2011 at 1:07pm
Pete, Perhaps I don't understand your suggestion of cutting back. If relieved 3/4" wouldn't it show in the top deck plywood. This concerns me because of the fluting in the top deck and the fact that it would throw off the pattern around the edge. I think you said you replaced your deck also and this may have had less consequence in your situation. How much $ is it for 16'goods to replace the hull? I recently purchased marine plywood to build a stitch and glue flats boat and the costs we're staggering. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-18-2011 at 1:55pm
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Jack,
How about some better pictures of the stem damage. I took another look at the one you posted and towards the top it doesn't look like much damage. It'd down from the deck 6" to 12" where I see most of the problem. Maybe a slight radius change on the stem would allow you to cut back the hull side ply. I think you will find the deck ply to be butt blocked and the hull sides were scarfed. You will not find sheet goods in 16' lengths and the reason I brought up scarfing a few posts ago. On the cost, I have seen decks come out beautiful using 1/4" luan underlament!!! for lumber and ply, take a look at http://theworkbench.com/ - LL Johson ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-18-2011 at 2:35pm
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Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-18-2011 at 2:44pm
if you are saying that the long ply is not available than it becomes a question of where to make the scarf joint. I have in stock some fine 3/8 marine ply. Will post pics soon even though I get a bit ahead of myself. Wait till you see the damage caused by the trailer post! Anyways let me complete my stringer installation so that my commitment is final. |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-19-2011 at 9:54am
         
Chowdered Bow |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-19-2011 at 10:26am
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Not surprised to see that, classic correct craft stem falling apart. There is black lower down too so it'as not only falling apart but it is rotting. Total replacement back to the keel like my previuos picture. Laminated or 2 piece whichever your more comfortable with.
I would forget getting that plywood back to a bright finish if it ever was that way it won't be again. If your going to paint you may be able to salvage/scarf it back together but bright I wouldn't think so. There is also plnrty of black on the edges of the ply which to me means the integrity of the bond is suspect also, it may not even hold new fasteners. Every other joint in that boat is going to have the same issues. A real close inspection is warranted and I can only recommend you don't skimp on putting it back together, These were not origianlly very sturdy boats and time has not been kind to any of them this old. At the very least the entire boats needs to be refastened, if me I would remove all plywood, clean, repair frames,etc, seal and adhere useable plywood back on with 5200 and go from there. In any case Jack you know you have to pull the stem so I'd flip it over and do that, that will show you the next step as you take it apart. I have a pretty strong feeling on what you'll find. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-19-2011 at 10:57am
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Jack,
The close up pictures are showing me that that boat is in rougher shape than your first pictures showed. I even see signs of fiberglass. Was the bottom glassed at one time or are those just patches? Ether way, glass on wood is the "kiss of death". I totally agree that you will never get a decent bright finish even if you bleached it. If you want to do a true restoration on the boat, then I suggest new ply. The bottom ply where it's painted may be salvagable but as mentioned, I feel it should come off as well. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-19-2011 at 12:09pm
Persistance pays and practice makes perfect. More on the stringer replacement;
 
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Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: August-22-2011 at 11:36am
The 1949 Dart that is owned by DrC I believe, has caught my eye. Now there is one good looking boat. After study of the many pictures I have determined a couple things of note. Firstly, the boat is completely painted which seems to contradict what Pete has told me, that no CC's we're painted before the 50's. I wonder if the boats may have been available with a variety of finishes to be chosen by the purchaser? On the bow of Waitin For The Dr" the white paint extends up in a serpentine design around the stem area. Noticed when purchased by the current owner the Dart had a metal protector in the bow area also. My feeling is that the white paint is of original design and that very likely my boat had similar attributes. The following picture shows a score line on the bow that designated the boundary of the painted white area. If DrC is so inclined I would request his input.
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