ethanol in gas =poor perofrmance?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11509
Printed Date: May-18-2024 at 1:51pm
Topic: ethanol in gas =poor perofrmance?
Posted By: mtguy
Subject: ethanol in gas =poor perofrmance?
Date Posted: August-07-2008 at 6:21pm
| Hi all, I posted a few days ago regarding a surging problem. "79" gave me something to look for -idle speed control, and I'll look this weekend at that. But in talking with another guy who has a Cobalt with a 350 in it who is having similar problems, his mechanic thinks it might be because they started putting 10% ethanol in all of the gas sold in Idaho (where my cabin/boat is). The theory is that ethanol, which is very corrosive, might be causing issues with gas tanks... What does everybody think about this? I hope it's not the case as what am I to do import ethanol-free gas from Canada? |
Replies:
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-07-2008 at 6:30pm
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I think you need to stop talking to that mechanic because he's not to bright. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: August-07-2008 at 6:33pm
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Yes...it lowers performance.
No...it is not causing your engine to surge. Tim ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-07-2008 at 6:34pm
Agreed. Many parts of the country can only get fuel with 10% ethanol (like here in the northeast). While our boats cant run on 85% ethanol (E85), they run just fine on E10. ------------- |
79nautique wrote:Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-07-2008 at 6:37pm
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the tank issues and other complaints are related to E-85 and not the 10% in gas that's been used since the early 80's. The performance lose yes there is some but try and see how much because you will not see a difference with 10%. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Booty
Date Posted: August-07-2008 at 8:44pm
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Ethanol is a clean form of alcohol and the first cut coming off the column would be methanol which would adsorb moisture in your gasoline tank . Thats a good thing, Gasoline in its self is loaded with sulfur and is corrosive in its own right. Don't worry about it. As far as performance ethanol is not the greatest octane booster and probably does hinder performance/ milage a little at 10%. Just make sure you are using at least 89 octane fuel and it will be alright ------------- Booty 82,2001 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3701 - 82,2001 |
Posted By: mtguy
Date Posted: August-07-2008 at 10:21pm
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Thanks all of you. I guess I really showed my motor ignorance with that questions! I do know in general that ethanol is very corrosive and thus they can't transport it the same way as other petroleum products, so it kind of made sense. In Spokane they use ethanol in the winter months and it definitely takes away a couple of mile a gallon in my truck. Guess I'm back to cleaning the idle speed control.
PS It wasn't my mechanic, I was talking to a guy with a Cobalt with a 350 in it who was having similar issues and it was his mechanic that suggested it. Thanks again everybody |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-08-2008 at 10:24am
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sometimes those guys in the cobolts have more money than brains. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: stepper459
Date Posted: August-08-2008 at 5:16pm
| There have indeed been problems in boats with (allegedly) 10% Ethanol blended gasoline. Part of the problem is improperly blended fuel so it's more than 10%; but still older boats that have buildup of "varnish" from years of gasoline in the tanks, fuel lines, etc. have had problems when the ethanol is introduced, because it is a stronger solvent than conventional blends of gasoline, even at 10% ethanol. Other problems such as water collecting in tanks, and breakdown of the liner of fiberglass tanks, have also been caused by these (supposedly) low percentage blends of ethanol gasoline. I have seen some nasty, watery crap come out of the fuel tanks of boats that had E10 in the tanks just a few times... |
Posted By: mtguy
Date Posted: August-08-2008 at 6:37pm
| Thanks Stepper. That was a clearer explanation than the original one given to me that made me post the original question. My tank is plastic (roto...?) I've heard that putting stabil in each tank might help. What are you recommending people do as it sounds like you're in the biz? Thanks in advance. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-09-2008 at 10:02am
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always 2 sides to a coin, ethanol is here and you have to make the best of it. I look at it this way, guys throw carb and injecter cleaner in the tank and that is probably very minimal. 10% of 30 gallons is 3 gallons, i would think 3 gallons of an alcohol based liquid is going to do something ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: August-09-2008 at 10:59am
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Its funny here in Australia now the oil company's are telling us E10 fuels are OK.
It was only a couple of years ago they were telling us how bad it was for our engines and used ethanol free as a marketing ploy. What they were not telling us though was thay they were using it as a octane booster in their premium unleaded fuels which were higher octane and had fuel injector cleaners in them (i.e. ethanol). Now Sell Australia have a myth busting section on their web site. To bust the myths that they in fact created. Myth 1. Ethanol burns hot due to an earlier ‘pre-detonation ratio’ (i.e. it explodes too soon) and can corrode engines over time. Ethanol has a high octane (Research and Motor Octanes) and as such ethanol based fuels have a natural tendency to resist compressive precombustion in engine combustion chambers. Its incorporation into fuel, in controlled quantities, will have the effect of lifting octane and allowing exposure to greater heat and compression in engines without 'pinging' (precombustion). The potential for corrosion due to ethanol has, in the past, been due to improper use by other retailers of lower quality ethanol at inappropriate blend ratios without corrosion protection. Along with this standard, Shell fuel-grade ethanol contains a corrosion inhibitor additive to ensure that corrosion due to trace impurities naturally present in ethanol is minimised. Myth 2. Ethanol fails to lubricate the engine like petrol so there is a potential for pistons and other moving parts within the combustion chamber to ‘seize up’ over time. Lubrication of piston rings in spark ignition 4 stroke engines is a result of traces of lubricating oil trapped between rings and combustion chamber wall. It is not due to the lubricating qualities of the motor spirit, so the impact of ethanol in this part of the engine will be negligible. Lubrication of other components such as fuel pumps of moving fuel system components is, however, dependent on the lubricating property of the fuel. In these cases ethanol contents of up to 10% have not been shown to cause excessive / noticeable wear in any other countries where Shell markets ethanol containing fuels. Shell has extensive experience with biofuels and is the largest global retailer of ethanol containing fuels. Shell markets ethanol containing petrol in several countries and has no records of adverse lubrication issues relating to these fuels. Also, a review of the available literature / studies also does not indicate that fuel system wear due to lack of lubrication is an issue. Myth 3. Ethanol can corrode fuel lines or anything rubber, including seals. Ethanol in high concentrations has been known to affect some plastic and rubber fuel system components. However, it is advisable to check the FCAI web site or contact your vehicle’s manufacturer to determine if there are any compatibility issues with particular makes and models. Myth 4. Ethanol always reduces fuel economy. 10% ethanol petrols, or E10 fuels, are known to result in a slight reduction in fuel economy in comparison to the same base fuel without the ethanol content. It has been documented that there is an approximate loss of 3.5% economy for E10 fuels and 1.5% for E5 fuels. Economy losses of this size are difficult to detect under typical driving conditions due to the impact on economy of other factors such as tyre pressure, driving style and driving situation (city vs. freeway driving). My personal experience has been that I found the 350 SB in my ski boat which was higher compression 10:1 than standard actually ran better and was more fuel efficient than if I ran standard unleaded. Our octane numbers are different to yours in the US. Normal unleaded is rated 91 octane and E10 is normally 94-95 octane. Our premium unleaded is 98 octane. I found if I went back to standard unleaded the boat would ping and I would need to reduce the static advance. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-09-2008 at 11:55am
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Lewy, what about build up of varnish in the system over the years? will this effect any of it and if it does or doesnt what should one do?
I really havnt heard of any problems with ethanol, just trying to be the advocate ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: August-09-2008 at 12:09pm
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Eric I think this info I got from a E85 site here in Aus has a good explaination of this:-
"Gasoline contains olefins and waxy paraffin like compounds. Fuel vendors add detergents to try and keep these in suspension but there is a tendency for them to deposit onto the surfaces of your fuel system. Over time, the inside of your fuel tank can become lined with a mixture of these compounds. Ethanol is very good at mobilizing these deposits and a few tank fulls of E85 will do a good job of cleaning them from your fuel system. They burn well, especially when mixed with ethanol, and will not harm your vehicle to be removed from your fuel system in this manner. The trouble is that these waxy compounds may also have been securing sediments to the bottom of your fuel tank. When these sediments are no longer secured, they will find themselves picked up by the fuel pump and into the fuel filter where they will start to obstruct the flow of fuel. This problem is most common when budget fuels have been used over a long period of time but most fuel filters are relatively easy to change. If you think you are a likely candidate for this issue, we recommend using your first few tankfuls and then changing the fuel filter as a preventative maintenance item rather than experiencing a problem when you are in a remote area." ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: August-10-2008 at 3:59am
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You can most certainly run the 10% ethanol and only 87 octane and cause no issues or harm to your boat.
In Canada, most if not all areas started to get only 10% ehtanol blended fuel this past winter. We have been using it here in the Milwaukee area for around 10 years, if not more. You won't have any issues, but you might notice a little more fuel consumption that with non ethanol enhanced fuels. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: adamt
Date Posted: August-10-2008 at 3:59am
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All I know is my (not that long ago) 17-18 mpg vehicle is lucky to get 15 mpg lately!!!  I say leave the corn for the cattle!!!------------- -Adam 1973 Skier |
Posted By: Booty
Date Posted: August-10-2008 at 9:04am
Adamt , I agree with you! Have you gone to the store to buy corn products Lately. 50-60 cents an ear for corn come on get outa town! I also read an artical that the United States picked the wrong crop for ethanol yield. That sugar cane produces more ethanol than corn. I think it is Argentina uses sugar cane for ethanol and has done so since the 70's and that country is oil independent from the grip of OPEC. ITs all politics though. ------------- Booty 82,2001 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3701 - 82,2001 |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-10-2008 at 10:40am
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Its brazil and cane produces i believe 3 times the amount from cane per pound compared to corn ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: August-10-2008 at 11:55am
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Here in Iowa, ethanol is a boon - attributable soley to the government mandate. They have built an ethanol plant in just about every county, some have 2. Could be a bunch of white elephants if the Feds change the rules down the road . . .
Thanks guys for supporting Iowa with your fuel dollars! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: adamt
Date Posted: August-11-2008 at 3:07am
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I've heard it said that basically anything that grows (organic) can be made into Ethanol, why the Government, in all their wisdom, picked corn I'll never know. The talk here in Fl a couple of years ago seaweed. There's a guy here locally who has an algae farm who says he's making diesel fuel from it. The advantage over corn is that he's getting a dozen harvests a year because the algae grows like nuts in this climate. I personally don't think corn was the wisest decision, I think a shortage in corn (ie greater demand) is going to have a bigger ripple effect in the USA than expected. ------------- -Adam 1973 Skier |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-11-2008 at 9:58am
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now if you were a corn farmer would you want that to happen, there is demand problem with gas now and all that does is drive up the price.....or is there? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-11-2008 at 1:18pm
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[QUOTE=adamt]
I've heard it said that basically anything that grows (organic) can be made into Ethanol,[QUOTE] That is celulos(sp) based production and that is still being developed. Cane suger and Corn are the most popular media used currently. http://www.drivingethanol.org/ethanol_facts/cellulosic.aspx - new stuff ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Booty
Date Posted: August-11-2008 at 3:12pm
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I was involved in the Last effort, the plant I worked for was transformed into a 663 millon dollar MTBE plant Was started by Tenneco Oil Co then during construction sold to Enron we ran for about 12 years. In the houston area we have been dealing with reformulated gas since 1992. The next big thing is akylates and Iso octane for fuel inhancement. I guess the nautique can run on just about anything, be carefull mtbe will destroy rubber parts and gaskets, OOOOh! look out ethanol will destroy rubber parts and gaskets. I used to get a quart " sample" of methanol and pour into the tank just to get rid of any condensate that may have collected. It all ran good. so whatever is next we will buy it and use it. ------------- Booty 82,2001 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3701 - 82,2001 |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-11-2008 at 3:18pm
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its the same old *************** with gambling in Ohio, the activists which are on Windsors and Detroits payroll are picketing for no gambling in Ohio and it keeps thier states funded, its always about the almighty dollar ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: August-11-2008 at 9:54pm
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I know from extensive biodiesel use that the ethanol does clean "stuff" out of older fuel tanks. Usually all that happens is a clogged fuel filter. On one vehicle some of the junk made it through the filter and gummed up an injection pump.
Also small amounts of ethanol will dissolve rubber gaskets/seals on some older fuel system parts. This can cause leaks and we all know how dangerous that is on inboard boats. In my experience any fuel system components sold in the last 5 years have seals that are safe with ethanol. If you have a boat older than 1990's you should watch your fuel system for leaks just to be safe. Admittedly I don't have as much experience with ethanol in gasoline, but I operate a fleet of diesel vehicles that all run on various concentrations of biodiesel. All of the pre-1990's vehicles developed some easily fixed leaks after a few months on the biodiesel. B-20 diesel is 20% biodiesel 80% petro-diesel. Biodiesel is about 30% ethanol so B-20 should be less that 10% ethanol and it will cause leaks on older fuel systems if not updated. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: mtguy
Date Posted: August-12-2008 at 2:38pm
| Wow, lots of posts for my original question. So, I think I fixed my surging issue. After cleaning the IAC I still had problems. While going through a list of possibilities, I noticed an in-line fuel filter. I changed it and now I have my old boat back! I probably should have looked at this first, but I couldn't see it without taking off engine cover and floor boards. My guess is the ethanol busted some crud loose and was caught in filter. Thanks all. I found the whole ethanol conversation interesting. The second generation ethanol as they call it, using switch grass and corn husks and the like is a couple of years down the pipeline from my reading on the subject. It will be a better use of energy and certainly better than using food stock to fill our tanks. |
Posted By: gigem75
Date Posted: August-12-2008 at 8:19pm
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if you can eat it you shouldn't make fuel out of it.
Anyone hear of small 2 strokes wearing out prematurely from using ethanol containing gasoline? Walmart has the cheapest gas but the most ethanol, what you save in price is given back in reduced milage. I'm sticking with Shell or Chevron. |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: August-13-2008 at 5:04am
And thanks to all the ethanol plants, the company I work for has several millions of $$ more in sales. Yes, ethanol can be made from pretty much anything organic, the algae is probably the best source. Corn was not the best idea becasue it drove prices of a food that we and our livestock eat. Algae, well, that feeds neither us nor livestock. Unless you count what, nori for sushi? LOL ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-13-2008 at 9:27am
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why cant we use coal and turn it into a fuel? it started out as trees and plants, it seems like some of the process of turning it into a burnable has been eliminated already ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: OM45GE
Date Posted: August-13-2008 at 10:13am
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There are processes to turn coal into both fuel (gasoline and Diesel) as well as fuel quality gasses. The Germans did it a lot during WW II becuase they didn't have enough oil but did have pleanty of coal.
The problem with most of them as I understand it is they they take so much energy that they're not worth it. I seem to remember that it actually took more energy for the conversion than the coal contained, but may be mistaken. It was definitely so expensive that it wasn't cost effective. That may not be true financially now that oil is so expensive. ------------- 1989 SN 2001 |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-13-2008 at 11:24am
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if you can take a green corn husk and make it burn cost effectively, you can surely take a fossil that burns easily and convert...i would think ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: gigem75
Date Posted: August-13-2008 at 1:29pm
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coal gasification like what the Germans did produces methanol, from that you can make just about anything. Our company has been doing it for over 25 years. We're investing a couple of billion down on the coast in a coal gasification project to produce methanol as the feedstock to replace natural gas feedstock in the olefin stream. It will also use the coke byproduct from gasoline refineries which they basically trhow away now. Improvements in the technology and the rising price of natural gas plus some tax breaks make it economically feasable. The main drawback is that the process produces huge quanities of CO2. From what I understand they'll take the CO2 and pump it back into old oil wells to repressurize the formation so more oil can be squeezed out of an old well.
I've been running B100 in a 28 year old 240D for going on three years now with no problems other than replacing the old fuel lines with newer that won't be melted by the bio. I did have to replace the two fuel filters a couple of times when I first started using it. It is a great solvent and scrubbed the inside of the fuel tans squeaking clean. After that I just replace them at the normal intervals. I played around with methanol recovery but it takes time and energy to do and quit doing it. I guess when methanol gets way high which it already is I'll redesign my condensor and give it another shot. 
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Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-13-2008 at 3:12pm
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you sure you aint makin corn whiskey? and it will just happen to burn in a car ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: gigem75
Date Posted: August-13-2008 at 4:06pm
| the stuff off the top goes in the milk jug, the bottom goes in the car:) |
Posted By: Booty
Date Posted: August-15-2008 at 10:39pm
make sure you get the ethanol out of your alcohol or you will go blind, thats the trouble with moonshiners they think is all drinkable.  ------------- Booty 82,2001 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3701 - 82,2001 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November-24-2012 at 11:57am
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Ethanol- Is a JOKE--- what has it done to lower fuel cost? NOTHING- What has it done to increase FOOD prices.MUCH!Lets not disturb those rather large companies in the mid-west region that produce the seed. Archer Daniels,comes to mind.. Those self serving politicians receive major dollars from these BIG CATS.. ...................we pay the price. |